I’m a sociologist, and there is nothing sociologists like to do more than point out where economists go wrong. So if GDP was a worthless figure, I expect the real world entanglement that one of my fellow sociologists would have convinced me of that already.
This sounds to me like a case of mistakenly thinking “someone would have noticed!”. What exactly would sociologists have noticed and hasn’t happened? Remember, “my echo chamber in academia agrees with me” doesn’t count as evidence!
And, FWIW, sociologists (and a lot of the left in general) do complain about GDP—they’re the ones spearheading the push to use alternate metrics like “Gross National Happiness” and other things. I think a lot of them are nutty, but at least they’re identifying values that need to be looked at.
Though I think we might both be better served by quitting conversation and reading actual experts (I don’t claim to be one) I would like to make sure we’re on the same page about the implications of your criticism.
But I have read the experts! Top economists like Greg Mankiw, Paul Krugman, and Scott Sumner blog and lay out their arguments in detail, and their (economic basis for making their) arguments are exactly as I have portrayed them! Sumner in particular believes (mistakenly imo) that nominal GDP is a crucial measure.
Krugman certainly relies heavily on measuring real GDP growth and equates it with progress. And James_K, who claims to be an economist, just came out of the woodwork and endorsed exactly what I’ve accused economists of, though asserting (with a basis I’m shaking) that they don’t really make that big of a deal out of GDP.
Are you not saying that it is essentially worthless to attempt to study economic growth or business cycles empirically because the data is so poor?
With the currently studied data, yes, though with different measures, better progress could be made. In the past I’ve suggested measuring non-cash and non-market production, subtracting certain “bad” activities from GDP (i.e. things which represent a response to destruction, as it’s indicative of merely replacing some capital with other capital), measuring product degradation in calculating CPI, and using insulin as a better inflation gauge.
if you can be [a sociologist] without having completed your dissertation yet.
Hey, I’m fine with calling you one if you’re fine with calling me an engineer despite just having a bachelors and years of field work but not a P.E. license.
I agree that GDP is imperfect. If it were easy to perfect then it would have been done already. Should more resources be devoted to the issue? Probably. I support the use of multiple measures of wealth and well-being. But I do think that when GDP goes up, that usually indicates good things are happening. Other indicators usually track it.
I’m not trying to deny you’ve noticed a problem, I just think that you’re overstating it because even though GDP is imperfect, there is still a lot to be learned from empirical research that uses it.
This sounds to me like a case of mistakenly thinking “someone would have noticed!”. What exactly would sociologists have noticed and hasn’t happened? Remember, “my echo chamber in academia agrees with me” doesn’t count as evidence!
And, FWIW, sociologists (and a lot of the left in general) do complain about GDP—they’re the ones spearheading the push to use alternate metrics like “Gross National Happiness” and other things. I think a lot of them are nutty, but at least they’re identifying values that need to be looked at.
But I have read the experts! Top economists like Greg Mankiw, Paul Krugman, and Scott Sumner blog and lay out their arguments in detail, and their (economic basis for making their) arguments are exactly as I have portrayed them! Sumner in particular believes (mistakenly imo) that nominal GDP is a crucial measure.
Krugman certainly relies heavily on measuring real GDP growth and equates it with progress. And James_K, who claims to be an economist, just came out of the woodwork and endorsed exactly what I’ve accused economists of, though asserting (with a basis I’m shaking) that they don’t really make that big of a deal out of GDP.
With the currently studied data, yes, though with different measures, better progress could be made. In the past I’ve suggested measuring non-cash and non-market production, subtracting certain “bad” activities from GDP (i.e. things which represent a response to destruction, as it’s indicative of merely replacing some capital with other capital), measuring product degradation in calculating CPI, and using insulin as a better inflation gauge.
Hey, I’m fine with calling you one if you’re fine with calling me an engineer despite just having a bachelors and years of field work but not a P.E. license.
I agree that GDP is imperfect. If it were easy to perfect then it would have been done already. Should more resources be devoted to the issue? Probably. I support the use of multiple measures of wealth and well-being. But I do think that when GDP goes up, that usually indicates good things are happening. Other indicators usually track it.
I’m not trying to deny you’ve noticed a problem, I just think that you’re overstating it because even though GDP is imperfect, there is still a lot to be learned from empirical research that uses it.