No, I’m in favour of attempts to bridge the gulf and the fact that you are posting here is a promising sign that it might be possible. I’m reluctant to engage further based on what I’ve seen of your writing on your site so far however—time is a limited resource and I fear that the value I would gain from engaging with you is not worth the time investment. Your comments in this thread have not exhibited the level of partisan blindness I’ve been worried by on your site however so there may be hope.
Also: I think what you’re misunderstanding about the POV on the site is that I am prepared to rationally defend everything I have said there, and I am prepared to retract or alter it if I cannot do so. (Note that there are a few articles posted by others, and I don’t necessarily agree with what they have said—but if I have not responded, it means I also don’t disagree strongly enough to bother. Maybe you do, and maybe I will too once the flaws are pointed out.)
If someone loans you a car, and it runs out of gas, do you (a) only put in enough gas to get you where you need to go (including returning it to the owner), or do you (b) fill the tank up?
I would argue that it is foolish to do (a), because if you become known as someone who pulls crap like that, people aren’t likely to loan you their cars in the future.
Libertarianism seems to be arguing, however, that (a) is the correct and proper action.
Next question:
Let’s say there’s some kind of widespread natural disaster where you live. Maybe outside help is coming but it will be a couple of weeks before it arrives in force. A group forms to work out what resources are available and who needs them. Let’s say you know all the people in that group, and have no reason to be suspicious of their motives. They decide that you have some supplies that are more urgently needed by others—people you don’t specifically know—and ask you to donate those supplies, even knowing that you may or may not ever be compensated for them given the extent of the disaster.
Would you say you have any… [let’s not say “obligation” or “compulsion”...] …rephrase: Would you feel like a jerk if you didn’t comply, or do you think it would be perfectly ok?
Libertarianism seems to be arguing, however, that (a) is the correct and proper action.
You don’t seem like someone well-acquainted with the relevant literature. If a policy seems obviously correct, and doesn’t involve coercing someone else into doing things against their will, then Libertarianism (at least, read as roughly equivalent to Lockean classical liberalism) won’t tell you not to do it.
A lot of libertarians are very enthusiastic about charity and philanthropy; they are less enthusiastic about being forced into it at gunpoint.
Is there any point to having this conversation here?
Libertarianism seems to be arguing, however, that (a) is the correct and proper action.
No, it really doesn’t. “Naively optimised self interest” suggests (a) and libertarianism is almost irrelevent to the question. Maybe if the question was “should people be coerced into b independently of any contract (formal or implicit) with the owner?”
If you think libertarianism argues that a) is the correct and proper action then you don’t understand libertarianism. I’m not even sure how you’d arrive at the idea that it does. I’m guessing that you are trying to make some kind of analogy between libertarian attitudes to government and libertarian attitudes to individual interactions but that you are assuming ideas about government that libertarians do not share.
As for the natural disaster scenario, the basis of libertarian ethics is that people should not be compelled to do anything by force. Voluntary charity is perfectly compatible with libertarianism and indeed libertarians often believe that voluntary charity is a much more satisfactory solution to most of the social problems that governments currently take it upon themselves to address.
Are you saying we should stop trying to bridge that gulf, or should I try to explain myself a different way?
No, I’m in favour of attempts to bridge the gulf and the fact that you are posting here is a promising sign that it might be possible. I’m reluctant to engage further based on what I’ve seen of your writing on your site so far however—time is a limited resource and I fear that the value I would gain from engaging with you is not worth the time investment. Your comments in this thread have not exhibited the level of partisan blindness I’ve been worried by on your site however so there may be hope.
Also: I think what you’re misunderstanding about the POV on the site is that I am prepared to rationally defend everything I have said there, and I am prepared to retract or alter it if I cannot do so. (Note that there are a few articles posted by others, and I don’t necessarily agree with what they have said—but if I have not responded, it means I also don’t disagree strongly enough to bother. Maybe you do, and maybe I will too once the flaws are pointed out.)
Okay, then, let me try again.
If someone loans you a car, and it runs out of gas, do you (a) only put in enough gas to get you where you need to go (including returning it to the owner), or do you (b) fill the tank up?
I would argue that it is foolish to do (a), because if you become known as someone who pulls crap like that, people aren’t likely to loan you their cars in the future.
Libertarianism seems to be arguing, however, that (a) is the correct and proper action.
Next question:
Let’s say there’s some kind of widespread natural disaster where you live. Maybe outside help is coming but it will be a couple of weeks before it arrives in force. A group forms to work out what resources are available and who needs them. Let’s say you know all the people in that group, and have no reason to be suspicious of their motives. They decide that you have some supplies that are more urgently needed by others—people you don’t specifically know—and ask you to donate those supplies, even knowing that you may or may not ever be compensated for them given the extent of the disaster.
Would you say you have any… [let’s not say “obligation” or “compulsion”...] …rephrase: Would you feel like a jerk if you didn’t comply, or do you think it would be perfectly ok?
You don’t seem like someone well-acquainted with the relevant literature. If a policy seems obviously correct, and doesn’t involve coercing someone else into doing things against their will, then Libertarianism (at least, read as roughly equivalent to Lockean classical liberalism) won’t tell you not to do it.
A lot of libertarians are very enthusiastic about charity and philanthropy; they are less enthusiastic about being forced into it at gunpoint.
Is there any point to having this conversation here?
No, it really doesn’t. “Naively optimised self interest” suggests (a) and libertarianism is almost irrelevent to the question. Maybe if the question was “should people be coerced into b independently of any contract (formal or implicit) with the owner?”
If you think libertarianism argues that a) is the correct and proper action then you don’t understand libertarianism. I’m not even sure how you’d arrive at the idea that it does. I’m guessing that you are trying to make some kind of analogy between libertarian attitudes to government and libertarian attitudes to individual interactions but that you are assuming ideas about government that libertarians do not share.
As for the natural disaster scenario, the basis of libertarian ethics is that people should not be compelled to do anything by force. Voluntary charity is perfectly compatible with libertarianism and indeed libertarians often believe that voluntary charity is a much more satisfactory solution to most of the social problems that governments currently take it upon themselves to address.
I think woozle believes that libertarians are parody versions of objectivists.
I thought objectivists were a parody version of libertarians.