If you think that “the public” used to be interested in art music to anything like the extent they’re now interested in popular music, you’re under the wrong impression.
Not everyone could attend concerts, but I have heard many references to musicians performing music by the same composers in small groups in coffeehouses, taverns, and other gathering places. In one of Robert Greenberg’s music histories, he said, IIRC, that around 1800, 1 in 20 people in Vienna were professional musicians. You could walk into music shops there whose main business was selling sheet music for people to perform at home; today, a city of the size that Vienna was in 1800 (200,000) might have 2 to 8 such shops (based on my knowing cities of about 50,000 that have one such store; and on the fact that Music and Arts, the largest chain of music stores around here, has 5 stores serving a population of 5,000,000 in the Washington DC area.) Some composers made a living by selling their scores. Despite the reachable market now being many times larger (perhaps 100 times larger), I don’t think anyone can do that today.
I could be wrong. I wasn’t there. And the question of how popular Mozart was in his day is not as important to me as the fact that Mozart and Beethoven are popular today, while Schoenberg is not; history has already given its verdict against the 2nd Viennese School. I don’t say these things in order to offend you. I apologize for using inflammatory language.
Sometimes history moves slowly. During his life, Bach was best known as an organist; sure, later composers studied and loved his work, but it wasn’t until the mid 19th century that he started to get the reputation that he has now.
I think komponisto is implying that there was plenty of popular music back then as well, but most of those composers/performers didn’t enter the canon.
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not. The idea of linear stylistic progression totally breaks down once you get to the mid 20th century, so if you want to construct a convenient narrative, you’ve got to grab onto popular music or jazz.
I think the Second Viennese School tends to get singled out, because they are the major overlap between “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ really enjoy” and “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ think is too bizarre.” If you go earlier, Mahler has too many fans, and later, people like Xenakis don’t have enough.
Sometimes history moves slowly. During his life, Bach was best known as an organist; sure, later composers studied and loved his work, but it wasn’t until the mid 19th century that he started to get the reputation that he has now.
I thought someone would mention that. I think it’s different. Schoenberg et al. were famous while they were alive. Their works were performed publicly, and adored by the cogniscenti, for decades. Bach grew into public favor. Schoenberg fell out of public favor. He had every chance the music establishment could give him, and still fell out of favor.
(BTW, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all made special studies of Bach’s music in the 18th century; so I’m skeptical of the “Bach had no reputation as a composer” argument.)
Also note that the time between when Bach wrote the St. Matthew Passion in 1727, and when Mendelssohn “revived” it in 1829, was only 102 years. We’ve already had 100 years of Schoenberg.
Also note that Bach is always brought up in this context because he is such a notable exception in that way
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not.
I don’t think Schoenberg ever had public favor. He may have had the favor of the “elite” music audience, but, as I understand it, the public at large was listening to early jazz. Maybe this is my American bias; I’m not sure.
I see your point about Bach; I always had the impression that composers knew about him, but the masses didn’t. I could be wrong. What were people in their homes actually playing in the 18th and 19th centuries? Whose music were they going to see? The question of whether or not “popular music” has replaced the music of the canonical composers from a cultural standpoint hinges on these answers that I don’t have.
Schoenberg et al. were famous while they were alive. Their works were performed publicly, and adored by the cogniscenti, for decades.
And this is still the case! There’s been no “falling out of favor”. On the one hand, you have elite musicians, who mostly admire Schoenberg; on the other hand, you have musical laypeople, who mostly don’t. Same as it’s always been!
You’ve already demonstrated before that you don’t know what’s going on in music today. Why do you keep making authoritative-sounding pronouncements on the matter?
(BTW, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all made special studies of Bach’s music in the 18th century; so I’m skeptical of the “Bach had no reputation as a composer” argument.)
He had a tremendous reputation as a composer—among those in a position to know about his work. That wasn’t a very large group.
No; I was contrasting Schoenberg with Bach. Given the chance, most people liked Bach. Given the chance, most people didn’t like Schoenberg.
Schoenberg may be good for people with decades of specialized training. Having fashion dictated by those people with specialized training resulted in a peacock’s-tail runaway selection, and the effective extinction of the greatest family of music in history. IMHO.
You can’t have it both ways. Your faction can’t be both the underdog and the triumphant party at the same time. If Schoenberg et al fell out of favor and ended up in the dustbin of musical history, then you can’t complain about his influence. If, on the other hand, you think he is responsible for the “extinction of the greatest family of music in history”, then you must concede that he is still taken seriously by those in the know.
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not
It’s true that in the 20th century, art music became advanced beyond the point of being immediately accessible to most non-specialists. No one would deny this. But so what? Something similar happened in science as well: in previous centuries, any educated person could hope to understand the greatest work of the time, and even possibly contribute to it. Now, that’s no longer the case.
This sort of progression is arguably inevitable. If people spend all their time refining some intellectual discipline, eventually, the results are going to require something like specialist training to properly apprehend. (That’s not to say that casual listeners couldn’t get a lot more out of advanced art music than they actually do, with suitable popularization efforts.)
The idea of linear stylistic progression totally breaks down once you get to the mid 20th century,
I dispute this entirely, and attribute this impression to our historical proximity. If you lived in the 18th century and were a connoisseur of music, Mozart and Haydn would have sounded a lot more different from each other than they do to us today—because we can contrast with what came after. In a century or two, the progression of twentieth-century music won’t seem very different in kind from what happened in earlier centuries.
Again, that’s not to say that something different didn’t happen in the twentieth century—but every period has its unique developments.
In one of Robert Greenberg’s music histories, he said, IIRC, that around 1800, 1 in 20 people in Vienna were professional musicians.
Even granting this statistic, this is highly selective reporting. Vienna has historically been a musical center, and was especially so at that time. The situation there was hardly typical of European society as a whole. And the phenomenon of high-quality music being played in gathering places hasn’t disappeared either: buskers play Bach, and recently I heard Beethoven’s 7th symphony come on between jazz selections in a coffee shop.
Mozart and Beethoven are popular today, while Schoenberg is not; history has already given its verdict against the 2nd Viennese School
That is silly and presumptuous. “Popularity” is hardly an appropriate metric for judging “the verdict of history” on a form of advanced creative intellection. I can assure you that the Second Viennese School is held in high esteem by expert composers and music theorists.
Besides—if “history” has “ruled against” the Second Viennese School, why are you complaining about the “death of great music” resulting from their influence?
I don’t say these things in order to offend you. I apologize for using inflammatory language.
That’s good; but there’s also a larger issue here. Assertions about music should be held to the same level of scrutiny as assertions about anything else. (As a result of discussions like this, I may be tempted at some point to do a post on rationality as it relates to the arts.)
I would love to read and comment on such a post. I would take issue with the widespread use of terms like “good,” “high-quality,” “real,” and “art” to differentiate the Western canon of choral/orchestral music from everything else that’s out there. I’m sure there are many jazz composers and theorists who wouldn’t give Berg or Webern the time of day. And buskers play all kinds of music—it doesn’t have to be Bach or Beethoven to be meaningful.
In terms of the Second Viennese School, what I should have said in my previous comment is that there’s a popular misconception that Schoenberg was the one who tipped the linear progression past the point of contemporary accessibility. i.e. that while Bach’s contemporaries, for example, may not have known his music, they were not freaked out by it. But this seems to be a pretty common thing in musical history—new composer comes along, people say “what the hell is that guy doing? ack, the impropriety!” and decades or centuries later, everybody gets it. Popularity is a fine metric for judging the verdict of history; you just have to wait until it’s actually history.
I’m sure there are many jazz composers and theorists who wouldn’t give Berg or Webern the time of day.
That’s true. However, I’m using this as a hook to recommend “The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady” by Charles Mingus. Jazz meets twelve tone, and it’s the only music which at least made me feel more intelligent for listening to it—probably a result of the music being more complex than I’m used to and very enjoyable.
Beethoven consciously rebelled against the rules, so it’s true at least for him. You can find many instances of contemporary music critics panning Haydn, Beethoven, and all the greats, and make them sound like people didn’t understand them. I don’t know how to interpret this, because I would bet that every composer had music critics write bad things about them.
BTW, it’s possible that Bach was pushed into obscurity by music critics. Baroque music was unfashionable in the late 18th century, for political reasons. Simple melodies were believed to be more Republican. So perhaps we can blame the academics for suppressing Bach, as well as for trying to push Schoenberg on us. :)
I’m interested in why there isn’t a parallel track of new music for orchestral instruments which is written for the general public. Admittedly, there’s movie music, but that seems very limited compared to what’s possible if there were original compositions.
I’m interested in why there isn’t a parallel track of new music for orchestral instruments which is written for the general public
There is. In fact most new orchestral music falls into this category. (The advanced stuff is difficult to perform and is generally only done by elite orchestras.) It just doesn’t have the same prestige as the old classics or the new advanced stuff.
But seriously, if you go to a concert by your local orchestra, there will often be a premiere of a new piece by some local composer which will sound like band music written for orchestra. (Unless your local orchestra is the New York Philharmonic or something. But even then, most new music will tend to be on the conservative side—people such as Rouse or Harbison, rather than Babbitt or Ferneyhough.)
Is it possible that it has less prestige because it just isn’t as likable for most people as the many sorts of competing music?
Usually it’s plenty “likable”, it just isn’t particularly impressive.
Not everyone could attend concerts, but I have heard many references to musicians performing music by the same composers in small groups in coffeehouses, taverns, and other gathering places. In one of Robert Greenberg’s music histories, he said, IIRC, that around 1800, 1 in 20 people in Vienna were professional musicians. You could walk into music shops there whose main business was selling sheet music for people to perform at home; today, a city of the size that Vienna was in 1800 (200,000) might have 2 to 8 such shops (based on my knowing cities of about 50,000 that have one such store; and on the fact that Music and Arts, the largest chain of music stores around here, has 5 stores serving a population of 5,000,000 in the Washington DC area.) Some composers made a living by selling their scores. Despite the reachable market now being many times larger (perhaps 100 times larger), I don’t think anyone can do that today.
I could be wrong. I wasn’t there. And the question of how popular Mozart was in his day is not as important to me as the fact that Mozart and Beethoven are popular today, while Schoenberg is not; history has already given its verdict against the 2nd Viennese School. I don’t say these things in order to offend you. I apologize for using inflammatory language.
Sometimes history moves slowly. During his life, Bach was best known as an organist; sure, later composers studied and loved his work, but it wasn’t until the mid 19th century that he started to get the reputation that he has now.
I think komponisto is implying that there was plenty of popular music back then as well, but most of those composers/performers didn’t enter the canon.
However, I think there’s another factor at play here—“art music” experienced the same academization and post-modernization that we saw in the visual arts. Serialism, musicque concrete, aleatory composition—all these things pushed the boundaries of what “music” actually meant, going against popular sensibilities in ways that (and I could be wrong here) the “art music” of previous centuries did not. The idea of linear stylistic progression totally breaks down once you get to the mid 20th century, so if you want to construct a convenient narrative, you’ve got to grab onto popular music or jazz.
I think the Second Viennese School tends to get singled out, because they are the major overlap between “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ really enjoy” and “music that some devotees of ‘art music’ think is too bizarre.” If you go earlier, Mahler has too many fans, and later, people like Xenakis don’t have enough.
I thought someone would mention that. I think it’s different. Schoenberg et al. were famous while they were alive. Their works were performed publicly, and adored by the cogniscenti, for decades. Bach grew into public favor. Schoenberg fell out of public favor. He had every chance the music establishment could give him, and still fell out of favor.
(BTW, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all made special studies of Bach’s music in the 18th century; so I’m skeptical of the “Bach had no reputation as a composer” argument.)
Also note that the time between when Bach wrote the St. Matthew Passion in 1727, and when Mendelssohn “revived” it in 1829, was only 102 years. We’ve already had 100 years of Schoenberg.
Also note that Bach is always brought up in this context because he is such a notable exception in that way
I agree completely.
I don’t think Schoenberg ever had public favor. He may have had the favor of the “elite” music audience, but, as I understand it, the public at large was listening to early jazz. Maybe this is my American bias; I’m not sure.
I see your point about Bach; I always had the impression that composers knew about him, but the masses didn’t. I could be wrong. What were people in their homes actually playing in the 18th and 19th centuries? Whose music were they going to see? The question of whether or not “popular music” has replaced the music of the canonical composers from a cultural standpoint hinges on these answers that I don’t have.
And this is still the case! There’s been no “falling out of favor”. On the one hand, you have elite musicians, who mostly admire Schoenberg; on the other hand, you have musical laypeople, who mostly don’t. Same as it’s always been!
You’ve already demonstrated before that you don’t know what’s going on in music today. Why do you keep making authoritative-sounding pronouncements on the matter?
He had a tremendous reputation as a composer—among those in a position to know about his work. That wasn’t a very large group.
No; I was contrasting Schoenberg with Bach. Given the chance, most people liked Bach. Given the chance, most people didn’t like Schoenberg.
Schoenberg may be good for people with decades of specialized training. Having fashion dictated by those people with specialized training resulted in a peacock’s-tail runaway selection, and the effective extinction of the greatest family of music in history. IMHO.
You can’t have it both ways. Your faction can’t be both the underdog and the triumphant party at the same time. If Schoenberg et al fell out of favor and ended up in the dustbin of musical history, then you can’t complain about his influence. If, on the other hand, you think he is responsible for the “extinction of the greatest family of music in history”, then you must concede that he is still taken seriously by those in the know.
Can’t you?
It’s true that in the 20th century, art music became advanced beyond the point of being immediately accessible to most non-specialists. No one would deny this. But so what? Something similar happened in science as well: in previous centuries, any educated person could hope to understand the greatest work of the time, and even possibly contribute to it. Now, that’s no longer the case.
This sort of progression is arguably inevitable. If people spend all their time refining some intellectual discipline, eventually, the results are going to require something like specialist training to properly apprehend. (That’s not to say that casual listeners couldn’t get a lot more out of advanced art music than they actually do, with suitable popularization efforts.)
I dispute this entirely, and attribute this impression to our historical proximity. If you lived in the 18th century and were a connoisseur of music, Mozart and Haydn would have sounded a lot more different from each other than they do to us today—because we can contrast with what came after. In a century or two, the progression of twentieth-century music won’t seem very different in kind from what happened in earlier centuries.
Again, that’s not to say that something different didn’t happen in the twentieth century—but every period has its unique developments.
Even granting this statistic, this is highly selective reporting. Vienna has historically been a musical center, and was especially so at that time. The situation there was hardly typical of European society as a whole. And the phenomenon of high-quality music being played in gathering places hasn’t disappeared either: buskers play Bach, and recently I heard Beethoven’s 7th symphony come on between jazz selections in a coffee shop.
That is silly and presumptuous. “Popularity” is hardly an appropriate metric for judging “the verdict of history” on a form of advanced creative intellection. I can assure you that the Second Viennese School is held in high esteem by expert composers and music theorists.
Besides—if “history” has “ruled against” the Second Viennese School, why are you complaining about the “death of great music” resulting from their influence?
That’s good; but there’s also a larger issue here. Assertions about music should be held to the same level of scrutiny as assertions about anything else. (As a result of discussions like this, I may be tempted at some point to do a post on rationality as it relates to the arts.)
I would love to read and comment on such a post. I would take issue with the widespread use of terms like “good,” “high-quality,” “real,” and “art” to differentiate the Western canon of choral/orchestral music from everything else that’s out there. I’m sure there are many jazz composers and theorists who wouldn’t give Berg or Webern the time of day. And buskers play all kinds of music—it doesn’t have to be Bach or Beethoven to be meaningful.
In terms of the Second Viennese School, what I should have said in my previous comment is that there’s a popular misconception that Schoenberg was the one who tipped the linear progression past the point of contemporary accessibility. i.e. that while Bach’s contemporaries, for example, may not have known his music, they were not freaked out by it. But this seems to be a pretty common thing in musical history—new composer comes along, people say “what the hell is that guy doing? ack, the impropriety!” and decades or centuries later, everybody gets it. Popularity is a fine metric for judging the verdict of history; you just have to wait until it’s actually history.
That’s true. However, I’m using this as a hook to recommend “The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady” by Charles Mingus. Jazz meets twelve tone, and it’s the only music which at least made me feel more intelligent for listening to it—probably a result of the music being more complex than I’m used to and very enjoyable.
Beethoven consciously rebelled against the rules, so it’s true at least for him. You can find many instances of contemporary music critics panning Haydn, Beethoven, and all the greats, and make them sound like people didn’t understand them. I don’t know how to interpret this, because I would bet that every composer had music critics write bad things about them.
BTW, it’s possible that Bach was pushed into obscurity by music critics. Baroque music was unfashionable in the late 18th century, for political reasons. Simple melodies were believed to be more Republican. So perhaps we can blame the academics for suppressing Bach, as well as for trying to push Schoenberg on us. :)
I’m interested in why there isn’t a parallel track of new music for orchestral instruments which is written for the general public. Admittedly, there’s movie music, but that seems very limited compared to what’s possible if there were original compositions.
There is. In fact most new orchestral music falls into this category. (The advanced stuff is difficult to perform and is generally only done by elite orchestras.) It just doesn’t have the same prestige as the old classics or the new advanced stuff.
Recommend some pieces and/or composers?
Is it possible that it has less prestige because it just isn’t as likable for most people as the many sorts of competing music?
Not particularly. :-)
But seriously, if you go to a concert by your local orchestra, there will often be a premiere of a new piece by some local composer which will sound like band music written for orchestra. (Unless your local orchestra is the New York Philharmonic or something. But even then, most new music will tend to be on the conservative side—people such as Rouse or Harbison, rather than Babbitt or Ferneyhough.)
Usually it’s plenty “likable”, it just isn’t particularly impressive.
OK, it’s likable, but it isn’t lovable. Any theories about the shortage of lovable new music for orchestra?
We do not currently live in a culture where the most impressive new music has broad appeal.