Your statement seems idealistic: “If we abandon those persuasive techniques that favour truth, we throw away the one advantage we believe we have over the many others that wish to persuade”
It reminds me of the statement from obama: “It is precisely our ideals that give us the strength and the moral high ground to be able to effectively deal with the unthinking violence that we see emanating from terrorist organizations around the world.” Source
It gets an applause but when you’re really trying to affect the world, things are not so black and white. I’m reminded of Machiavelli, who wrote “And short-sighted writers admire [the rulers] deeds from one point of view and from another condemn the principal cause of them.”. I would imagine you would criticize a politician for using dark arts, but they couldn’t even be in that position without using them.
P.S. I concede with the boo lights. Let me know the policy on tweaking posts.
What you quote of mine does have some of the connotations you ascribe to it, but it does also denote something, and it feels as if you haven’t engaged with that so it’s a little hard to reply to you. Do you disagree with what it denotes?
To share my personal belief history here, I’d say I’m questioning whether I agree with your statement, despite my prior conviction. Except for a few rationalist types, most people I’ve met don’t really seem to mind sophistry whatsoever; the sophist will seem more charismatic and more worth listening to. And when the sophist really does say an insightful but difficult-to-believe truth, they’re the ones with the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down.
P.S. I’d be very interested hearing about someone applying Robin Hanson’s take on status and signaling to this.
Your statement seems idealistic: “If we abandon those persuasive techniques that favour truth, we throw away the one advantage we believe we have over the many others that wish to persuade”
It reminds me of the statement from obama: “It is precisely our ideals that give us the strength and the moral high ground to be able to effectively deal with the unthinking violence that we see emanating from terrorist organizations around the world.” Source
It gets an applause but when you’re really trying to affect the world, things are not so black and white. I’m reminded of Machiavelli, who wrote “And short-sighted writers admire [the rulers] deeds from one point of view and from another condemn the principal cause of them.”. I would imagine you would criticize a politician for using dark arts, but they couldn’t even be in that position without using them.
P.S. I concede with the boo lights. Let me know the policy on tweaking posts.
What you quote of mine does have some of the connotations you ascribe to it, but it does also denote something, and it feels as if you haven’t engaged with that so it’s a little hard to reply to you. Do you disagree with what it denotes?
EDIT: tweaking is perfectly usual!
To share my personal belief history here, I’d say I’m questioning whether I agree with your statement, despite my prior conviction. Except for a few rationalist types, most people I’ve met don’t really seem to mind sophistry whatsoever; the sophist will seem more charismatic and more worth listening to. And when the sophist really does say an insightful but difficult-to-believe truth, they’re the ones with the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down.
P.S. I’d be very interested hearing about someone applying Robin Hanson’s take on status and signaling to this.