Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be ambiguous; I thought it would be clear that the intended meaning was more like (see below for details) the latter (“Duncan alleges that he”), and definitely not the former—since, as you say, the former interpretation is tautological.
(Though, yes, it also covers third parties, under the assumption—which so far seems to be borne out—that said third parties are taking as given what you [Duncan] claim re: what you find unpleasant.)
the second is just saying “what Duncan alleges is not what he alleges.”
No, not quite. Consider the following three things, which are all different:
(a) “Alice’s description of something which Alice says she finds unpleasant”
(b) “The thing Alice claims to find unpleasant, according to Alice’s description of it”
(c) “The thing Alice claims to find unpleasant, in (claimed, by someone who isn’t Alice) reality (which may differ from the thing as described by Alice)”
Obviously, (a) is of a different kind from (b) and (c). I was noting that I was not referring to (a), but instead to (c).
(An example: Alice may say “wow, that spider really scared me!”. In this case, (a) is “that spider” [note the double quote marks]; (b) is a spider [supposedly]; and (c) may be, for example, a harvestman [also supposedly].)
In other words: there’s some phenomenon which you claim to find unpleasant. We believe your self-report of your reaction to this thing. It remains, however, to characterize the thing in question. You offer some characterization. It seems to me that there’s nothing either incoherent or unusual about me disputing the characterization—without, in the process, doubting your self-report, accusing you of lying, claiming that you’re saying something other than what you’re saying, etc.
I note that Said has now done something between [accusing me of outright lying] and [accusing me of being fully incompetent to understand my own motivations and do accurate introspection]
Well, as I’ve said (several times), I don’t think that you’re lying. (You might be, of course; I’m no telepath. But it seems unlikely to me.)
Take a look, if you please, at my description of your perspective and actions, found at the end of this comment. As I say there, it’s my hope that you’ll find that characterization to be fair and accurate.
And certainly I don’t think that anything in that description can be called an accusation of lying, or anything much like lying (in the sense of consciously attempted deception of people other than oneself).
(We do often speak of “lying to yourself”—indeed, I’ve done so, in this conversation—and that seems to me to be an understandable enough usage; but, of course, “you’re lying to yourself” is a very different from just plain “you’re lying”. One may accuse someone who says “you’re lying to yourself” of Bulverism, perhaps, of argument-by-armchair-psychoanalysis, or some such thing, but we don’t say “he just called me a liar!”—because that’s not what happened, in this scenario.)
As far as “being fully incompetent to understand my own motivations and do accurate introspection” goes, well… no, that’s not exactly right either. But I would prefer to defer discussion of this point until you comment on whether my aforementioned description of your perspective seems to you to be accurate and fair.
Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be ambiguous; I thought it would be clear that the intended meaning was more like (see below for details) the latter (“Duncan alleges that he”), and definitely not the former—since, as you say, the former interpretation is tautological.
(Though, yes, it also covers third parties, under the assumption—which so far seems to be borne out—that said third parties are taking as given what you [Duncan] claim re: what you find unpleasant.)
No, not quite. Consider the following three things, which are all different:
(a) “Alice’s description of something which Alice says she finds unpleasant”
(b) “The thing Alice claims to find unpleasant, according to Alice’s description of it”
(c) “The thing Alice claims to find unpleasant, in (claimed, by someone who isn’t Alice) reality (which may differ from the thing as described by Alice)”
Obviously, (a) is of a different kind from (b) and (c). I was noting that I was not referring to (a), but instead to (c).
(An example: Alice may say “wow, that spider really scared me!”. In this case, (a) is “that spider” [note the double quote marks]; (b) is a spider [supposedly]; and (c) may be, for example, a harvestman [also supposedly].)
In other words: there’s some phenomenon which you claim to find unpleasant. We believe your self-report of your reaction to this thing. It remains, however, to characterize the thing in question. You offer some characterization. It seems to me that there’s nothing either incoherent or unusual about me disputing the characterization—without, in the process, doubting your self-report, accusing you of lying, claiming that you’re saying something other than what you’re saying, etc.
Well, as I’ve said (several times), I don’t think that you’re lying. (You might be, of course; I’m no telepath. But it seems unlikely to me.)
Take a look, if you please, at my description of your perspective and actions, found at the end of this comment. As I say there, it’s my hope that you’ll find that characterization to be fair and accurate.
And certainly I don’t think that anything in that description can be called an accusation of lying, or anything much like lying (in the sense of consciously attempted deception of people other than oneself).
(We do often speak of “lying to yourself”—indeed, I’ve done so, in this conversation—and that seems to me to be an understandable enough usage; but, of course, “you’re lying to yourself” is a very different from just plain “you’re lying”. One may accuse someone who says “you’re lying to yourself” of Bulverism, perhaps, of argument-by-armchair-psychoanalysis, or some such thing, but we don’t say “he just called me a liar!”—because that’s not what happened, in this scenario.)
As far as “being fully incompetent to understand my own motivations and do accurate introspection” goes, well… no, that’s not exactly right either. But I would prefer to defer discussion of this point until you comment on whether my aforementioned description of your perspective seems to you to be accurate and fair.
It was not; I both strong downvoted and, separately, strong disagreed.
(I missed the call to end the conversation; sorry for replying.)
(I’ve basically asked Said to stop replying here and would prefer everyone else to stop replying to as well)