I’m looking into signing up for cryonics, as well as trying to reconcile my expressed beliefs and my actual, more nuanced beliefs about future disability prevalence. It’s clear to me that I’ve been misrepresenting my opinions for political reasons, but I want to advocate for my actual position without losing my membership in a group that I need to be in to make my arguments heard. Realizing that this was what was going on is thanks (in part) to this site.
I’m a member of Alcor and have given lots of thought to cryonics, and have even written a bit about it so feel free to ask me questions about cryonics here or by PM.
I’m already talking to Rudi Hoffman (the guy who does free quotes), but what I really need is a guide to presenting the idea to my parents (I’m a minor), who definitely could shut this whole thing down if they disapproved.
Also, if I only have my brain stored, can they donate the organs?
Also, if I only have my brain stored, can they donate the organs?
Some quick googling of the phrase ‘cryonics “organ donation”’ suggests the answer is (a) neuro-only is not always possible, so no; (b) trying to do both puts the cryonics part at serious risk of paperwork problems; (c) they aren’t experienced enough to do both complicated cryonics procedure and whatever’s necessary for donation; and (d) it’s probably irrelevant because you’ll be so old and dying of nasty things like cancer that most of your donation would be useless.
Women tend to react much more negatively than men so start with your dad. Tell him that Peter Thiel is a member of an organization that you want to join because you think that the organization has a chance at greatly extending your life. If your parents won’t agree to cryonics then at least get a whole life insurance policy. This will protect you against the risk that you will get sick and not be able to buy life insurance.
You might want to tell your parents that you greatly fear death, and signing up for cryonics would reduce this fear and so give you a happier life. Also, consider telling them that you will keep your cryonics membership a secret if they think this would be best. Tell your parents that you know other people who have signed up for cryonics and so if it works you won’t be alone when revived. Finally, if there is something your parents really want you to do but you resist, offer a trade.
“Normal” people think cryonics is crazy, so expect your parents to think this as well. You will probably never succeed in convincing them that cryonics is worth the money and if your mom finds cryonics disgusting you will likely never get her to change her mind about this. Focus on getting your parents to let you do something that they think is a bad idea because you have earned the right to decide for yourself.
I’m not sure about donating organs if you just have your brain preserved, but I think the answer is no. If this bothers you then donate a few hundred dollars to some efficient charity and you will probably do a greater amount of expected good than if you agreed to be an organ donor.
My father is a science professor who also teaches a class on nanotechnology in literature, so he’s read enough sci-fi to have a strong negative first impression of cryonics. He estimates the chance of waking up in a future that one would rather die than exist in to be higher than waking up in a more pleasant future. (I asked him a few weeks ago what he thought of cryonics, w/o mentioning personal opinions.)
I’m bad at modeling humans as compared to the general population, but I think he’d be the greater obstacle.
Also, what sort of disgust reaction to cryonics is more typical of women than of men?
I can get through a discussion while avoiding getting into the medical details, if that’s the issue. My mother has been fine with discussing controversial medical issues, was fairly open about human biology from the beginning, approved my participation in multiple non-invasive medical studies, and is a blood donor, so she seems to be able to overcome immediate feelings of disgust if she can see a benefit to doing so.
You have more experience with women’s reactions to cryonics than I do. Do you know if these sorts of traits make a strong disgust reaction less likely?
Any difference between men and women on average is just that: on average. Think almost-but-not-quite-completely overlapping Gaussian curves. You have a lot more information about your parents than James_Miller, so he’s making a complete guess based on the slight difference in prior for men and women, whereas you’re able to update on much more complete and relevant information about your actual parents, not just the barely relevant fact that one is a man and one is a woman. Conclusion: discuss it with your mother, if that seems better to you.
Any difference between men and women on average is just that: on average. Think almost-but-not-quite-completely overlapping Gaussian curves.
The second sentence does not follow from the first. It is also possible for the Gaussian curves to be so far apart that there is almost no overlap, and that situation is still perfectly describable by saying that there is a difference between both populations on average but reflects a much stronger difference in prior probability. As a matter of empirical fact, only 20% of Alcor’s members were female as of 1999, and the number of women opposed to their husband’s cryonics arrangements is well-known as the hostile wife phenomenon. Combine with Dr. Miller’s experience and we have a strong outside view case that ilzolende’s mother will probably react worse than her father to cryonics.
No, of course it doesn’t follow automatically, but a lot of the time people point out an average difference between men and women, this is the case. I happen to think it’s quite likely that there are good explanations for the phenomena you cite that don’t include “women are intrinsically more biased against cryonics than men”; there are certainly possible explanations, so it would be a bit daft to assume that that one possibility explains all the variance.
I happen to think it’s quite likely that there are good explanations for the phenomena you cite that don’t include “women are intrinsically more biased against cryonics than men”
I think the explanation is that women are intrinsically more conformist then men and since cryonics is currently unusual and perceived as weird, well.
so it would be a bit daft to assume that that one possibility explains all the variance.
The rule of thumb is that 20% of the causes are responsible for 80% of the effect.
The issue is who can better predict what ilzolende’s mom will think of cryonics, ilzolende who knows his mom, or me who has never met ilzolende’s mom but who has talked to many women about cryonics. The chance of my being a better predictor is increasing in the number of women I have talked to about cryonics so while what I wrote didn’t “contradict” what you said it does reduce the likelihood of your being right.
I’m female, but this site doesn’t have a bio section in the user profile, so no big deal.
My estimated probability that my mom will react negatively to discussion of cryonics is being adjusted upwards slightly, but the information I really need is what sort of things someone who is disgusted by cryonics would also be disgusted by.
I would assume what James Miller is saying is that he has seen a wide variety of women react to cryonics, so in addition to having a reliable estimate of the average woman’s behavior, he would know of more women who are similar to a described woman, and how those women reacted.
I would assume that you have more information about how different types of people react to cryonics, and that I have more information about what mental traits my mother has. I tried to pass on the knowledge of her mental traits which I thought were relevant to your estimate, so that you could make a better estimate. I wasn’t suggesting that you didn’t know how people react to cryonics.
It actually is possible to create a bio section on your user profile, but it requires jumping through some hoops. Specifically, if there’s a page for User:yourname on the wiki, the main site pulls it in as a profile and it becomes your main user page (you can still get to your comments by clicking “Comments” or “Overview”): see for example Gwern’s user page on the main site, and on the wiki.
The chance of my being a better predictor is increasing in the number of women I have talked to about cryonics
Nope. By increasing your sample size you are getting your sample mean and so your estimate of the true mean closer to the population mean. But you can never get better than the population mean in your forecast. Someone who knows how the specifics of a particular data point differ from the average/expected value is quite likely to produce a better forecast.
Because there is a limited amount of free energy in the universe, you probably don’t get revived in a bad future. A society that knew enough nanotech to revive you is one where you would not be a profitable slave or organ bank, and they are only likely to bring you back if they value your happiness. Also, there is some chance that you would be able to kill yourself post-revival if you found life worse than death.
Your dad might enjoy my book Singularity Rising which makes the case for cryonics in one chapter.
I don’t know how to characterize the disgust that lots of women feel towards cryonics, other then to say it seems to fit comfortably in the “disgust” category of emotions.
I’m looking into signing up for cryonics, as well as trying to reconcile my expressed beliefs and my actual, more nuanced beliefs about future disability prevalence. It’s clear to me that I’ve been misrepresenting my opinions for political reasons, but I want to advocate for my actual position without losing my membership in a group that I need to be in to make my arguments heard. Realizing that this was what was going on is thanks (in part) to this site.
I’m a member of Alcor and have given lots of thought to cryonics, and have even written a bit about it so feel free to ask me questions about cryonics here or by PM.
I’m already talking to Rudi Hoffman (the guy who does free quotes), but what I really need is a guide to presenting the idea to my parents (I’m a minor), who definitely could shut this whole thing down if they disapproved.
Also, if I only have my brain stored, can they donate the organs?
Some quick googling of the phrase ‘cryonics “organ donation”’ suggests the answer is (a) neuro-only is not always possible, so no; (b) trying to do both puts the cryonics part at serious risk of paperwork problems; (c) they aren’t experienced enough to do both complicated cryonics procedure and whatever’s necessary for donation; and (d) it’s probably irrelevant because you’ll be so old and dying of nasty things like cancer that most of your donation would be useless.
Women tend to react much more negatively than men so start with your dad. Tell him that Peter Thiel is a member of an organization that you want to join because you think that the organization has a chance at greatly extending your life. If your parents won’t agree to cryonics then at least get a whole life insurance policy. This will protect you against the risk that you will get sick and not be able to buy life insurance.
You might want to tell your parents that you greatly fear death, and signing up for cryonics would reduce this fear and so give you a happier life. Also, consider telling them that you will keep your cryonics membership a secret if they think this would be best. Tell your parents that you know other people who have signed up for cryonics and so if it works you won’t be alone when revived. Finally, if there is something your parents really want you to do but you resist, offer a trade.
“Normal” people think cryonics is crazy, so expect your parents to think this as well. You will probably never succeed in convincing them that cryonics is worth the money and if your mom finds cryonics disgusting you will likely never get her to change her mind about this. Focus on getting your parents to let you do something that they think is a bad idea because you have earned the right to decide for yourself.
I’m not sure about donating organs if you just have your brain preserved, but I think the answer is no. If this bothers you then donate a few hundred dollars to some efficient charity and you will probably do a greater amount of expected good than if you agreed to be an organ donor.
My father is a science professor who also teaches a class on nanotechnology in literature, so he’s read enough sci-fi to have a strong negative first impression of cryonics. He estimates the chance of waking up in a future that one would rather die than exist in to be higher than waking up in a more pleasant future. (I asked him a few weeks ago what he thought of cryonics, w/o mentioning personal opinions.)
I’m bad at modeling humans as compared to the general population, but I think he’d be the greater obstacle.
Also, what sort of disgust reaction to cryonics is more typical of women than of men?
I can get through a discussion while avoiding getting into the medical details, if that’s the issue. My mother has been fine with discussing controversial medical issues, was fairly open about human biology from the beginning, approved my participation in multiple non-invasive medical studies, and is a blood donor, so she seems to be able to overcome immediate feelings of disgust if she can see a benefit to doing so.
You have more experience with women’s reactions to cryonics than I do. Do you know if these sorts of traits make a strong disgust reaction less likely?
Any difference between men and women on average is just that: on average. Think almost-but-not-quite-completely overlapping Gaussian curves. You have a lot more information about your parents than James_Miller, so he’s making a complete guess based on the slight difference in prior for men and women, whereas you’re able to update on much more complete and relevant information about your actual parents, not just the barely relevant fact that one is a man and one is a woman. Conclusion: discuss it with your mother, if that seems better to you.
The second sentence does not follow from the first. It is also possible for the Gaussian curves to be so far apart that there is almost no overlap, and that situation is still perfectly describable by saying that there is a difference between both populations on average but reflects a much stronger difference in prior probability. As a matter of empirical fact, only 20% of Alcor’s members were female as of 1999, and the number of women opposed to their husband’s cryonics arrangements is well-known as the hostile wife phenomenon. Combine with Dr. Miller’s experience and we have a strong outside view case that ilzolende’s mother will probably react worse than her father to cryonics.
No, of course it doesn’t follow automatically, but a lot of the time people point out an average difference between men and women, this is the case. I happen to think it’s quite likely that there are good explanations for the phenomena you cite that don’t include “women are intrinsically more biased against cryonics than men”; there are certainly possible explanations, so it would be a bit daft to assume that that one possibility explains all the variance.
I think the explanation is that women are intrinsically more conformist then men and since cryonics is currently unusual and perceived as weird, well.
The rule of thumb is that 20% of the causes are responsible for 80% of the effect.
I have discussed cryonics with hundreds of women. (I talk about it with my students and I teach at a women’s college.)
Sure, I don’t think that contradicts what I said?
The issue is who can better predict what ilzolende’s mom will think of cryonics, ilzolende who knows his mom, or me who has never met ilzolende’s mom but who has talked to many women about cryonics. The chance of my being a better predictor is increasing in the number of women I have talked to about cryonics so while what I wrote didn’t “contradict” what you said it does reduce the likelihood of your being right.
I’m female, but this site doesn’t have a bio section in the user profile, so no big deal.
My estimated probability that my mom will react negatively to discussion of cryonics is being adjusted upwards slightly, but the information I really need is what sort of things someone who is disgusted by cryonics would also be disgusted by.
I would assume what James Miller is saying is that he has seen a wide variety of women react to cryonics, so in addition to having a reliable estimate of the average woman’s behavior, he would know of more women who are similar to a described woman, and how those women reacted.
I would assume that you have more information about how different types of people react to cryonics, and that I have more information about what mental traits my mother has. I tried to pass on the knowledge of her mental traits which I thought were relevant to your estimate, so that you could make a better estimate. I wasn’t suggesting that you didn’t know how people react to cryonics.
Thanks for the data!
It actually is possible to create a bio section on your user profile, but it requires jumping through some hoops. Specifically, if there’s a page for User:yourname on the wiki, the main site pulls it in as a profile and it becomes your main user page (you can still get to your comments by clicking “Comments” or “Overview”): see for example Gwern’s user page on the main site, and on the wiki.
Most people don’t bother, though.
Nope. By increasing your sample size you are getting your sample mean and so your estimate of the true mean closer to the population mean. But you can never get better than the population mean in your forecast. Someone who knows how the specifics of a particular data point differ from the average/expected value is quite likely to produce a better forecast.
Because there is a limited amount of free energy in the universe, you probably don’t get revived in a bad future. A society that knew enough nanotech to revive you is one where you would not be a profitable slave or organ bank, and they are only likely to bring you back if they value your happiness. Also, there is some chance that you would be able to kill yourself post-revival if you found life worse than death.
Your dad might enjoy my book Singularity Rising which makes the case for cryonics in one chapter.
I don’t know how to characterize the disgust that lots of women feel towards cryonics, other then to say it seems to fit comfortably in the “disgust” category of emotions.