It’s well documented that a single bunny ear overhand knot should suffice to keep your shoes tied.
For the first 20 years of my life, I had been tying the initial overhand knot with the wrong polarity (right lace clockwise around left) compared to my bunny-ear tying polarity. If your laces don’t stay, try swapping either one (but just one) and you may have fixed a mismatch. In my case I just changed to the mirror image of the first-stage overhand knot motion (changing dominant hand, etc.).
OMG I did not even know I didn’t know how to tie my shoes! I was tying granny knots instead of square knots. I have been double-knotting my laces for years because they would keep coming undone. No longer! Great link there, Mr. Graehl.
I never learned the bunny ears method, but according to that same web site, it results in the same knot as the standard method.
It’s the same knot, but bunny ears result in both loops being on one side of the central knot while the other results in them being opposite each other. While not generally of much note (or importance) in shoelaces, bunny ears result in a neater-looking knot.
Yes, the result should be the same after settling. I used to double knot as well. I did learn to tie his recommended alternate shoelace knot, but it wasn’t worth switching for me.
Not only did I never learn how to tie my shoes without bunny ears, I didn’t learn the bunny ears technique till I was eleven. For some reason I simply couldn’t follow the process of tying a shoe knot, no matter how many times it was demonstrated to me. Eventually, my fencing coach realized that I didn’t know how to tie my shoes, and he took me aside in frustration, and showed me the bunny ears technique. I got it immediately, and was baffled that nobody had ever tried to teach it to me that way before.
I’m pretty sure that the two shoe-tying methods are homotopically equivalent; which is to say there’s no reason to learn the “other way.”
There’s a possible status issue. People might consider you immature if you they see you using bunny ears. (Also, I’m not completely sure what it means for them to be homotopically equivalent in this context since the ends don’t form a loop. The whole thing isn’t a true knot from a homotopy perspective. Even if you did glue the ends together, the whole thing is I think homotopically equivalent to a trefoil (the only part that does something non-trivial is the initial crossing, and all the earlier crossings can be folded up into that.)
I don’t mean homotopy necessarily in terms of knot theory, I mean it in terms of a smooth (or Ck for some k) map from R x [0,1] to R^3 where f(R,t) is a curve, f(R,0) is bunny ears and f(R,1) is whatever the other method is called.
It is true that since the later crossings are trivial from a knot theoretic perspective that there isn’t a lot to show. I believe you could make an argument that they are homotopic in some stronger sense, because they involve the same steps in different orders and result in the same knot in the strong sense that the two tyings are actually equal.
As to the status issue, I rarely tie my shoes in front of people, or see other people tying their shoes. I guess I could imagine it being a problem in high school gym class?
I don’t mean homotopy necessarily in terms of knot theory, I mean it in terms of a smooth (or Ck for some k) map from R x [0,1] to R^3 where f(R,t) is a curve, f(R,0) is bunny ears and f(R,1) is whatever the other method is called.
Yes, in general, this is weaker than what one has in knot theory. What I think you want is actually a slightly stronger claim than even a knot theory homotopy. I think the claim you want is that it satisfies all of that, and one has that has such that the projections onto some plane are strongly equivalent in the sense that one can get from one to the other without any Reidemeister moves.
As to the status issue, I rarely tie my shoes in front of people, or see other people tying their shoes. I guess I could imagine it being a problem in high school gym class?
If this thread is accurate some people can distinguish how the knot was tied by subtle cues. I know that a lot of people claim that there’s all sorts of status junk connected to shoes. I’m skeptical that it exists nearly as much as some people claim but if one does care about such potential environments it might matter.
one has that has such that the projections onto some plane are strongly equivalent in the sense that one can get from one to the other without any Reidemeister moves.
Hm, I was wondering the same thing and the discussion did not seem to have a direct answer, so here’s what I found: bunny ears means that after the initial overhand knot, you make a loop with each shoelace, and then tie the knot again with the loops. This is in contrast to the “standard” way (link below), where the initial overhand knot is followed by one loop, bringing the other shoelace around it, and pulling through.
I never even knew you could do it the bunny ears way! It looks so much easier.
I’m the opposite of ewang—I only ever learned the standard way and that was after a lot of effort as a ~3-year-old. But now, it’s just automatic, like I’m sure it is for everyone else. I’ll also have to check out the Ian knot for its speed.
Dvorak/Qwerty, why am I suddenly thinking of you?
Depending on the kinds of footwear you wear, you might try simply doing something different than tying them.
I wear mostly sneakers, and when I got annoyed with tying them (especially one pair with laces that got untied so easily I’m sure there must be some kind of bad design award they could win) I started kind of weaving the ends among the crossing laces. Kind of like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_Etnies_shoes_with_checkerboard_laces.jpg except that it doesn’t have to be that elaborate, and it’s not as obvious if the laces are of one color.
If done just right (in terms of tension) it will be loose enough to allow sliding your foot in the shoe, but tight enough to keep the shoes from slipping.
I’ve never figured out how to tie my shoes without bunny ears. No joke.
I use bunny ears.
It’s well documented that a single bunny ear overhand knot should suffice to keep your shoes tied.
For the first 20 years of my life, I had been tying the initial overhand knot with the wrong polarity (right lace clockwise around left) compared to my bunny-ear tying polarity. If your laces don’t stay, try swapping either one (but just one) and you may have fixed a mismatch. In my case I just changed to the mirror image of the first-stage overhand knot motion (changing dominant hand, etc.).
OMG I did not even know I didn’t know how to tie my shoes! I was tying granny knots instead of square knots. I have been double-knotting my laces for years because they would keep coming undone. No longer! Great link there, Mr. Graehl.
I never learned the bunny ears method, but according to that same web site, it results in the same knot as the standard method.
It’s the same knot, but bunny ears result in both loops being on one side of the central knot while the other results in them being opposite each other. While not generally of much note (or importance) in shoelaces, bunny ears result in a neater-looking knot.
Yes, the result should be the same after settling. I used to double knot as well. I did learn to tie his recommended alternate shoelace knot, but it wasn’t worth switching for me.
Not only did I never learn how to tie my shoes without bunny ears, I didn’t learn the bunny ears technique till I was eleven. For some reason I simply couldn’t follow the process of tying a shoe knot, no matter how many times it was demonstrated to me. Eventually, my fencing coach realized that I didn’t know how to tie my shoes, and he took me aside in frustration, and showed me the bunny ears technique. I got it immediately, and was baffled that nobody had ever tried to teach it to me that way before.
I’m pretty sure that the two shoe-tying methods are homotopically equivalent; which is to say there’s no reason to learn the “other way.”
There’s a possible status issue. People might consider you immature if you they see you using bunny ears. (Also, I’m not completely sure what it means for them to be homotopically equivalent in this context since the ends don’t form a loop. The whole thing isn’t a true knot from a homotopy perspective. Even if you did glue the ends together, the whole thing is I think homotopically equivalent to a trefoil (the only part that does something non-trivial is the initial crossing, and all the earlier crossings can be folded up into that.)
I don’t mean homotopy necessarily in terms of knot theory, I mean it in terms of a smooth (or Ck for some k) map from R x [0,1] to R^3 where f(R,t) is a curve, f(R,0) is bunny ears and f(R,1) is whatever the other method is called.
It is true that since the later crossings are trivial from a knot theoretic perspective that there isn’t a lot to show. I believe you could make an argument that they are homotopic in some stronger sense, because they involve the same steps in different orders and result in the same knot in the strong sense that the two tyings are actually equal.
As to the status issue, I rarely tie my shoes in front of people, or see other people tying their shoes. I guess I could imagine it being a problem in high school gym class?
Yes, in general, this is weaker than what one has in knot theory. What I think you want is actually a slightly stronger claim than even a knot theory homotopy. I think the claim you want is that it satisfies all of that, and one has that has such that the projections onto some plane are strongly equivalent in the sense that one can get from one to the other without any Reidemeister moves.
If this thread is accurate some people can distinguish how the knot was tied by subtle cues. I know that a lot of people claim that there’s all sorts of status junk connected to shoes. I’m skeptical that it exists nearly as much as some people claim but if one does care about such potential environments it might matter.
Yes, I think this is what I intended.
What are bunny ears?
Hm, I was wondering the same thing and the discussion did not seem to have a direct answer, so here’s what I found: bunny ears means that after the initial overhand knot, you make a loop with each shoelace, and then tie the knot again with the loops. This is in contrast to the “standard” way (link below), where the initial overhand knot is followed by one loop, bringing the other shoelace around it, and pulling through.
I never even knew you could do it the bunny ears way! It looks so much easier.
I’m the opposite of ewang—I only ever learned the standard way and that was after a lot of effort as a ~3-year-old. But now, it’s just automatic, like I’m sure it is for everyone else. I’ll also have to check out the Ian knot for its speed.
Dvorak/Qwerty, why am I suddenly thinking of you?
Upvoted because of the link. It’s a whole new world to me.
Neither have I, but only because I’ve never figured out why the other way is supposed to be better. Why is it?
I personally find it faster and easier because I don’t have to hold the two separate loops and keep them from unlooping when I tie them.
I suspect it’s just culturally seen as the grown-up way to do it and the other way is the easy, five-year-old’s way.
It also seems to allow more control over how tight you wish your shoes to be.
I have seen other people do it the other way pretty quickly, but I can’t say that it’s faster because I don’t know anyone else that uses bunny ears.
Depending on the kinds of footwear you wear, you might try simply doing something different than tying them.
I wear mostly sneakers, and when I got annoyed with tying them (especially one pair with laces that got untied so easily I’m sure there must be some kind of bad design award they could win) I started kind of weaving the ends among the crossing laces. Kind of like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_Etnies_shoes_with_checkerboard_laces.jpg except that it doesn’t have to be that elaborate, and it’s not as obvious if the laces are of one color.
If done just right (in terms of tension) it will be loose enough to allow sliding your foot in the shoe, but tight enough to keep the shoes from slipping.
For sports and more dressy shoes, or if you just might want to stick to knots, try http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/knots.htm
(Funny, I hadn’t even realized there are two ways of forming the loops, I think I do it either way by instinct depending on length.)
Me too. (This is turning into a confessional thread.)