It’s easy to learn. You can still retain qwerty proficiency. It does feel nicer for typing English. It doesn’t help programming. It’s annoying to use multiple/public computers.
There are quite a few layouts that may be better than Dvorak. But probably not by enough to justify the extra effort of choosing one.
I first learned how to touch type on Dvorak, but switched to qwerty when I went to college so I wouldn’t have issues using other computers. I found that I could not maintain proficiency with both layouts. One skill just clobbered the other.
Maybe that’s true once you try to get extremely fast with both.
Since elementary school typing class, I’ve been 80+ wpm qwerty.
I only learned and used dvorak up to about 50-60 wpm. Perhaps I never could have built maximum competence in both. I definitely noticed some mode-switching overhead.
But probably not by enough to justify the extra effort of choosing one.
I disagree. (And am biased as it gets.)
Qwerty is really pretty bad. But looking out for the available once might make a difference in experienced typeability.
The network effect of keyboards is marginally. Some are preinstalled in your favorite OS, some are not. But otherwise you end up with about the same effort for relearning and explaining to other computer users why yours works different, that you can really invest a few hours to first look up which layout suits you the most.
Dvorak is probably worth learning. I’m saying that (except if you spend most of your time typing non-English text, e.g. some programming language that has much more typing time than thinking time), it’s probably not worth finding a more optimal layout than Dvorak.
In fact, if you have examples of the types of text you most often type, you can find a nonstandard layout using computer optimization, which is what I was thinking of.
My rough view is that for typical English text, the efficiencies are:
qwerty: 85%
dvorak: 97%
(all other layouts): at most 100%
So it’s better to just learn Dvorak now than to choose something that has more implementation effort than choosing the layout from a menu (iphone, windows, mac, and unix will probably all have a menu that includes a dvorak mode, but not some more esoteric 99% efficient layout for your workload).
The efficiency numbers I give are in terms of actual trained speed and accuracy. In fact, by metrics like “finger miles”, Dvorak is dramatically more efficient than qwerty. That’s not what I optimize, though. I am skeptical that RSI risk scales mainly with “daily finger miles” (I had pretty severe wrist/shoulder RSI for over a year in the past).
This has made me wonder why I don’t use Dvorak myself. I think it’s mostly because I didn’t learn the full keyset I use for programming. And I would probably prefer one of the more-like-qwerty punctuation layouts (that mainly rearranges letter keys), but I don’t want to decide …
I’m guilty of not really following my own advice, so I welcome a refutation :)
I try my best, but I also am very biased and probably not an expert.
The main effort in switching layouts is a fixed re:training time, and then some minor hassles when interfacing with other people. It is not the time to install the new driver!
(I usually regroup the keys on my keyboards, but thats also a fixed time per keyboard bought and some low level fun.)
There is no research I am aware of that confirms the RSI/finger movement connection. All pleasure derived from my Layout of choice is purely subjective.
The point I tried to make is that it pays to choose well before deciding to spend the effort for training a new layout. Take a few hours to reach a somewhat reasonable decision and then go about it, instead of just following a subcultural trend.
I think you underestimate the possible benefits gained from a better designed keyboard. There is a lot of space at the top.
What makes me like Neo tremendously besides the optimization are the additional layers. Pay attention to the 3rd layer in the overview. All brackets are nicely available in the center field.I would like to see that tacked onto any other layout one might choose.
(I am also disappointed that professional researchers into work ergonomy did not attack this topic on their own. The layouts I checked out seem to be fan projects. And with current technology it is almost trivial to calculate a good one at home.)
And being somewhat of a language buff I can type all latin-based languages natively from my keyboard. Without installing anything extra or switching layouts multiple times. That might not be too important for all-english writers, but for me that means some benefit with my 3rd language and possible later ones.
I would expect that someone interested in the topic is not immediately aware of the possibilities offered.
Actually before relearning I calculated the expected benefits and came out with what economists call a black 0 meaning some minor benefits. It is more valuable to retrain to another layout when young, and when you expect to write a lot of text over your lifetime. Programmers might be on the edge of not benefiting too much from it. But I find the experience of having to relearn highly interesting in itself. It helps in empathizing with computer newbies.
If you decide to go for a new layout, give at least Colemak a good thorough look. If not, no harm done.
Disclaimer: I use NEO since 2006, after a brief try with dvorak]
I agree that subjective pleasure with your choices is very important.
I just remembered another reason I chose to stay qwerty—emacs keybindings and video games (although I’m video game abstinent for the past few months). The default letters-as-commands mappings would have to be changed or positionally relearned for each such application I’m familiar with (similar: ctrl-z x c v in windows). Overall I didn’t feel like investing the effort to resolve the annoyance, but I guess I wish now that I had made the investment; I’d probably enjoy the result as you do.
The effort of installing a new layout isn’t much, you’re right (unless you hop computers often). It just might be if you use especially limited devices (does the iphone/ipad keyboard even support arbitrary layouts?) that you sometimes need to qwerty anyway.
The NEO developergroup payed attention to many of those. They also collected common sets of two or three letters from common applications. So the Smiley becomes just one roll over three buttons. I probably reap some benefits from that once I get back into Lateχ. In general I like to use tools that are optimized over my current horizon and can surprise me with thinks already put in way after I started to use them.
I guess I wish now that I had made the investment
You can make the investment at any time you choose. Once you did the calculation changes (thanks to sunken cost) but before that its a matter of finding a convenient time space. Like when one is sick at home, or in holidays.
Iphone/ipad does not have Colemak or generic support for different layouts. Not sure about Dvorak.
My brother has used Dvorak for the past 10 years.
It’s easy to learn. You can still retain qwerty proficiency. It does feel nicer for typing English. It doesn’t help programming. It’s annoying to use multiple/public computers.
There are quite a few layouts that may be better than Dvorak. But probably not by enough to justify the extra effort of choosing one.
I first learned how to touch type on Dvorak, but switched to qwerty when I went to college so I wouldn’t have issues using other computers. I found that I could not maintain proficiency with both layouts. One skill just clobbered the other.
Maybe that’s true once you try to get extremely fast with both.
Since elementary school typing class, I’ve been 80+ wpm qwerty.
I only learned and used dvorak up to about 50-60 wpm. Perhaps I never could have built maximum competence in both. I definitely noticed some mode-switching overhead.
I disagree. (And am biased as it gets.) Qwerty is really pretty bad. But looking out for the available once might make a difference in experienced typeability.
The network effect of keyboards is marginally. Some are preinstalled in your favorite OS, some are not. But otherwise you end up with about the same effort for relearning and explaining to other computer users why yours works different, that you can really invest a few hours to first look up which layout suits you the most.
You may have misunderstood me.
Dvorak is probably worth learning. I’m saying that (except if you spend most of your time typing non-English text, e.g. some programming language that has much more typing time than thinking time), it’s probably not worth finding a more optimal layout than Dvorak.
In fact, if you have examples of the types of text you most often type, you can find a nonstandard layout using computer optimization, which is what I was thinking of.
My rough view is that for typical English text, the efficiencies are:
qwerty: 85%
dvorak: 97%
(all other layouts): at most 100%
So it’s better to just learn Dvorak now than to choose something that has more implementation effort than choosing the layout from a menu (iphone, windows, mac, and unix will probably all have a menu that includes a dvorak mode, but not some more esoteric 99% efficient layout for your workload).
The efficiency numbers I give are in terms of actual trained speed and accuracy. In fact, by metrics like “finger miles”, Dvorak is dramatically more efficient than qwerty. That’s not what I optimize, though. I am skeptical that RSI risk scales mainly with “daily finger miles” (I had pretty severe wrist/shoulder RSI for over a year in the past).
This has made me wonder why I don’t use Dvorak myself. I think it’s mostly because I didn’t learn the full keyset I use for programming. And I would probably prefer one of the more-like-qwerty punctuation layouts (that mainly rearranges letter keys), but I don’t want to decide …
I’m guilty of not really following my own advice, so I welcome a refutation :)
I try my best, but I also am very biased and probably not an expert.
The main effort in switching layouts is a fixed re:training time, and then some minor hassles when interfacing with other people. It is not the time to install the new driver! (I usually regroup the keys on my keyboards, but thats also a fixed time per keyboard bought and some low level fun.)
There is no research I am aware of that confirms the RSI/finger movement connection. All pleasure derived from my Layout of choice is purely subjective.
The point I tried to make is that it pays to choose well before deciding to spend the effort for training a new layout. Take a few hours to reach a somewhat reasonable decision and then go about it, instead of just following a subcultural trend.
I think you underestimate the possible benefits gained from a better designed keyboard. There is a lot of space at the top.
What makes me like Neo tremendously besides the optimization are the additional layers. Pay attention to the 3rd layer in the overview. All brackets are nicely available in the center field.I would like to see that tacked onto any other layout one might choose.
(I am also disappointed that professional researchers into work ergonomy did not attack this topic on their own. The layouts I checked out seem to be fan projects. And with current technology it is almost trivial to calculate a good one at home.)
And being somewhat of a language buff I can type all latin-based languages natively from my keyboard. Without installing anything extra or switching layouts multiple times. That might not be too important for all-english writers, but for me that means some benefit with my 3rd language and possible later ones.
I would expect that someone interested in the topic is not immediately aware of the possibilities offered.
Actually before relearning I calculated the expected benefits and came out with what economists call a black 0 meaning some minor benefits. It is more valuable to retrain to another layout when young, and when you expect to write a lot of text over your lifetime. Programmers might be on the edge of not benefiting too much from it. But I find the experience of having to relearn highly interesting in itself. It helps in empathizing with computer newbies.
If you decide to go for a new layout, give at least Colemak a good thorough look. If not, no harm done.
Disclaimer: I use NEO since 2006, after a brief try with dvorak]
I agree that subjective pleasure with your choices is very important.
I just remembered another reason I chose to stay qwerty—emacs keybindings and video games (although I’m video game abstinent for the past few months). The default letters-as-commands mappings would have to be changed or positionally relearned for each such application I’m familiar with (similar: ctrl-z x c v in windows). Overall I didn’t feel like investing the effort to resolve the annoyance, but I guess I wish now that I had made the investment; I’d probably enjoy the result as you do.
The effort of installing a new layout isn’t much, you’re right (unless you hop computers often). It just might be if you use especially limited devices (does the iphone/ipad keyboard even support arbitrary layouts?) that you sometimes need to qwerty anyway.
The NEO developergroup payed attention to many of those. They also collected common sets of two or three letters from common applications. So the Smiley becomes just one roll over three buttons. I probably reap some benefits from that once I get back into Lateχ. In general I like to use tools that are optimized over my current horizon and can surprise me with thinks already put in way after I started to use them.
You can make the investment at any time you choose. Once you did the calculation changes (thanks to sunken cost) but before that its a matter of finding a convenient time space. Like when one is sick at home, or in holidays.
Iphone/ipad does not have Colemak or generic support for different layouts. Not sure about Dvorak.