This is excellent advice, and I up-voted it. However:
If she seems annoyed or condescending or whatever, try to shrug it off; just smile and say “okay, no problem” or something along those lines. Do the same thing if she says “I’d rather just be friends.” (But for the love of Pete, do not spend a lot of effort trying to actually cultivate a friendship. Moooooove on.)
I may just be reading too much into things, and I acknowledge that this comment is written primarily as a response to the question “how to get into a relationship”. Nevertheless, this bit bothers me a bit, as the “for the love of, don’t try to actually cultivate a friendship” part seems to imply that there’s no point in being friends with women if you’re not going to have a relationship with them. That strikes me as a bit offensive.
Even if we’re assuming that you’re purpose is solely to get women, I don’t think befriending lots of them is as useless as you seem to suggest. You say yourself that one’s friends may introduce one to somebody one might be interested in. People tend to have more same-sex friends than opposite-sex friends, so being friends with lots of women will increase your chances of one of them introducing you to a friend of theirs. I also suspect that women are more likely than men to do this.
I do admit that this may not be the most efficient approach if you’re optimizing purely for finding a romantic relationship in minimum time. But on the other hand, it can wield you rewarding friendships that persist long after the end of your relationship with whoever it was you eventually found, so personally I’d find it worth it.
I should also mention that my experience somewhat mirrors MBlume’s, and I find the notion of becoming involved with someone before being good friends with them a little off-putting. Which is not to say that it would never have happened to me, though. (Without going to details, suffice to say that I’ve both had relationships with women I was friends with from before, and with women where that wasn’t the case.)
Befriending women is sometimes useful for becoming attractive to other women. (Allow me to skip the obligatory part where friendship is good in itself, of course it is, but I want to make a different point.) For example, you can ask them to help you shop for clothes, relying on their superior visual taste. Most of my “nice” clothes that I use for clubbing etc. were purchased this way, and girls seem to love this activity. Also they can bring you to events where you can meet other women; help you get into clubs; offer emotional support when you need it; and so on. If you make it very clear that you’re not pursuing this specific girl sexually, being friends with her can make quite a substantial instrumental benefit.
That said, of course I don’t mean the kind of “friendship” that girls offer when they reject you. That’s just a peculiar noise they make with their mouths in such situations, it doesn’t mean anything.
Sorry, that line wasn’t clear. If you’d truly like to be friends with a particular woman, then by all means, be her friend! What I’m specifically counseling inexperienced men to avoid is the pitfall where they befriend a woman when they really want to be her boyfriend, and then spend a lot of time pining after her fruitlessly.
And I did mean it when I said, “It is true that established friendships can make a wonderful basis for romance...” My husband was my friend first, so I’m not knocking these kinds of relationships at all. However, it’ll either happen or it won’t; if there are strategies for making it happen, I don’t know them; and I don’t think hoping it will happen is a good strategy at all for men specifically looking for a relationship. My impression is that ending up in “the friend zone” with a woman you want to date is a fairly common failure mode for inexperienced men, so I advise SilasBarta to take some care to avoid it. I may have stressed that part too heavily.
There’s a big difference between “If I approach someone for a date, and s/he rebuffs me, it’s best not to spend a lot of effort cultivating a friendship with that person” and “It’s never worth cultivating friendships.”
Yes, making friends is worth doing. Agreed. And if it so happens that the person I’m making friends with is someone I’d previously wanted to date, great! I have numerous friends in this category, and some of them are very good friends indeed.
But even with that in mind, I mostly agree with siduri.
Mostly that’s because I know very few people who can make that decision reliably immediately after being turned down. Taking a while to decide whether I’m genuinely interested in a friendship with this person seems called for.
I also meant the “spend a lot of effort” part to act as a qualifier, since for me true friendships tend to develop spontaneously and easily, in contrast to a situation where I’m actively courting the other person and they’re kind of pulling back. In my own life, I’ve learned it’s better to just let those second kinds of friendships die in the bud.
However, I recognize on reflection that for more introverted people, developing any friendship probably takes significant effort—so advice along the general lines of “if you have to push it, it’s probably not meant to be” is actually probably bad advice for a lot of people. Instead, I think the question should be “would you be satisfied with friendship alone, if nothing further ever developed? Would the friendship be a source of happiness to you, or a source of frustration and pain?”
I just don’t think guys should spend the time and energy being friends with women if friendship isn’t truly what they’re after. In a case like that it’s much better for them to focus their attention on other women, who might reciprocate.
I believe the point is that if you want a romantic relationship with a woman, cultivating a friendship with her in the hopes that romance will develop is almost always a bad idea. Occasionally such romance sparks “out of the blue”, but more likely nothing will ever happen, and it is a huge investment of time and emotion that basically never pays off. So if you aren’t interested in the woman for the sake of friendship alone, it is better to just forget about her and move on.
If you find a person interesting and worth being friends with, by all means don’t reject such an opportunity just because the person is a woman. That’s idiotic. It’s just a terrible dating strategy, that’s all.
sark hit upon a good point here: think of meeting many women as a special case of meeting many people.
How good are you at generally meeting people? Improve that and you’ll meet more of the half of them you’re interested in. General social skills are good to exercise.
I think there’s also the question if the “I’d rather just be friends.” said in the context of rejecting an invite to a date actually means “I want to be your friend.” or is just a polite way of saying “I don’t want to go on a date with you.”. In the former case trying to cultivate a friendship will be more useful than in the latter...
This is excellent advice, and I up-voted it. However:
I may just be reading too much into things, and I acknowledge that this comment is written primarily as a response to the question “how to get into a relationship”. Nevertheless, this bit bothers me a bit, as the “for the love of, don’t try to actually cultivate a friendship” part seems to imply that there’s no point in being friends with women if you’re not going to have a relationship with them. That strikes me as a bit offensive.
Even if we’re assuming that you’re purpose is solely to get women, I don’t think befriending lots of them is as useless as you seem to suggest. You say yourself that one’s friends may introduce one to somebody one might be interested in. People tend to have more same-sex friends than opposite-sex friends, so being friends with lots of women will increase your chances of one of them introducing you to a friend of theirs. I also suspect that women are more likely than men to do this.
I do admit that this may not be the most efficient approach if you’re optimizing purely for finding a romantic relationship in minimum time. But on the other hand, it can wield you rewarding friendships that persist long after the end of your relationship with whoever it was you eventually found, so personally I’d find it worth it.
I should also mention that my experience somewhat mirrors MBlume’s, and I find the notion of becoming involved with someone before being good friends with them a little off-putting. Which is not to say that it would never have happened to me, though. (Without going to details, suffice to say that I’ve both had relationships with women I was friends with from before, and with women where that wasn’t the case.)
Befriending women is sometimes useful for becoming attractive to other women. (Allow me to skip the obligatory part where friendship is good in itself, of course it is, but I want to make a different point.) For example, you can ask them to help you shop for clothes, relying on their superior visual taste. Most of my “nice” clothes that I use for clubbing etc. were purchased this way, and girls seem to love this activity. Also they can bring you to events where you can meet other women; help you get into clubs; offer emotional support when you need it; and so on. If you make it very clear that you’re not pursuing this specific girl sexually, being friends with her can make quite a substantial instrumental benefit.
That said, of course I don’t mean the kind of “friendship” that girls offer when they reject you. That’s just a peculiar noise they make with their mouths in such situations, it doesn’t mean anything.
Sorry, that line wasn’t clear. If you’d truly like to be friends with a particular woman, then by all means, be her friend! What I’m specifically counseling inexperienced men to avoid is the pitfall where they befriend a woman when they really want to be her boyfriend, and then spend a lot of time pining after her fruitlessly.
And I did mean it when I said, “It is true that established friendships can make a wonderful basis for romance...” My husband was my friend first, so I’m not knocking these kinds of relationships at all. However, it’ll either happen or it won’t; if there are strategies for making it happen, I don’t know them; and I don’t think hoping it will happen is a good strategy at all for men specifically looking for a relationship. My impression is that ending up in “the friend zone” with a woman you want to date is a fairly common failure mode for inexperienced men, so I advise SilasBarta to take some care to avoid it. I may have stressed that part too heavily.
There’s a big difference between “If I approach someone for a date, and s/he rebuffs me, it’s best not to spend a lot of effort cultivating a friendship with that person” and “It’s never worth cultivating friendships.”
Yes, making friends is worth doing. Agreed. And if it so happens that the person I’m making friends with is someone I’d previously wanted to date, great! I have numerous friends in this category, and some of them are very good friends indeed.
But even with that in mind, I mostly agree with siduri.
Mostly that’s because I know very few people who can make that decision reliably immediately after being turned down. Taking a while to decide whether I’m genuinely interested in a friendship with this person seems called for.
I also meant the “spend a lot of effort” part to act as a qualifier, since for me true friendships tend to develop spontaneously and easily, in contrast to a situation where I’m actively courting the other person and they’re kind of pulling back. In my own life, I’ve learned it’s better to just let those second kinds of friendships die in the bud.
However, I recognize on reflection that for more introverted people, developing any friendship probably takes significant effort—so advice along the general lines of “if you have to push it, it’s probably not meant to be” is actually probably bad advice for a lot of people. Instead, I think the question should be “would you be satisfied with friendship alone, if nothing further ever developed? Would the friendship be a source of happiness to you, or a source of frustration and pain?”
I just don’t think guys should spend the time and energy being friends with women if friendship isn’t truly what they’re after. In a case like that it’s much better for them to focus their attention on other women, who might reciprocate.
Fair enough. I can agree with that.
I believe the point is that if you want a romantic relationship with a woman, cultivating a friendship with her in the hopes that romance will develop is almost always a bad idea. Occasionally such romance sparks “out of the blue”, but more likely nothing will ever happen, and it is a huge investment of time and emotion that basically never pays off. So if you aren’t interested in the woman for the sake of friendship alone, it is better to just forget about her and move on.
If you find a person interesting and worth being friends with, by all means don’t reject such an opportunity just because the person is a woman. That’s idiotic. It’s just a terrible dating strategy, that’s all.
sark hit upon a good point here: think of meeting many women as a special case of meeting many people.
How good are you at generally meeting people? Improve that and you’ll meet more of the half of them you’re interested in. General social skills are good to exercise.
I think there’s also the question if the “I’d rather just be friends.” said in the context of rejecting an invite to a date actually means “I want to be your friend.” or is just a polite way of saying “I don’t want to go on a date with you.”. In the former case trying to cultivate a friendship will be more useful than in the latter...