If the captain of a football team has five women, that means that he only has one-fifth as much time for each of them, meaning that they’re likely to be available to others as well.
At first sight it seems that those women are 4⁄5 available for other men in the group. But this assumes that men and women have the same sex drive on average. If we assume that men have stronger sex drive, or that their sex drive increases significantly when many women are sexually available to them (I am not a biologist, but I think both of this is true), then there is less than 4⁄5 availability of these women for the rest of group.
In other words, to make all members of a poly society equally sexually satisfied, this society must have more women than men. With the same number of women than men, less successful men will be frustrated, even if all women are satisfied. (Of course, if you are a woman, or if you are the most attractive man in your poly group, this is not your problem.)
EDIT: In essence, “one fifth of time” does not equal “one fifth of sex”. A woman may spend one fifth of her time having hot sex with the captain, and the remaining time in just-friends mode, or 90% just-friends mode, with the remaining men.
And perhaphs, since they’re getting their desire for high-status übermasculinity satisfied from him, they’ll also be more open to relationships with less masculine and lower-status men.
Or perhaps, their demands will increase, and the remaining men will seem even more pathetic.
It seems to me that for most men monogamy is better. For women, two topics to think about: children and age above 40.
When the children are born, do you want to test paternity or not? (But even if you won’t, some man will think that he is a father, and the others will think they are not. Or maybe, everyone will think that someone else was the father.) It seems like most men do not want to invest much resources into child that is not biologically theirs. Even if the man has one child with one woman, and three children with other woman, he may invest little into the first child.
If you are a young woman, it is important to note that the balance in “sex market” depends on the age. On average, younger women have higher sexual value than younger men, but older women have lower sexual value than older women. Thus we have so many young boys unable to find a girlfriend, and so many old women unable to find a partner (this imbalance is even worse because women on average live longer). Don’t assume that your “sex market” value will stay constant.
Both monogamy and polygamy have their benefits and risks. The risks of monogamy are well known, therefore I wrote about the risks of polygamy. (Risks of monogamy: choosing the wrong partner and not having enough data to realize it; also if your partner dies or leaves you, you start from zero.)
Sexual desires are not a constant for each invidual person.
It seems (in the poly community) that awesome sexual experiences with one partner make one want more sexual things with the other partners rather than less.
The 5 women that are spending so much time with this alpha male will find their menstrual cycles becoming synchronised (assuming, of course, that they allow natural menstrual cycling). This will therefore mean that they are all at their most sexually active simultaneously.
Assuming that the peak sex drive of a woman is more than 1⁄5 of the constant male sex drive, this means that at least one of those 5 women will be unsatisfied during her days of peak sex-drive.
In other words, to make all members of a poly society equally sexually satisfied, this society must have more women than men.
Or you could just adjust the bisexuality / homosexuality rates… I dare say an all-men all-homosexual polyamorous group would have to be entirely stable, at least so long as we’re playing entirely to gender stereotypes.
(Is there any actual research about women being less interested in sex, by the way? I’ve heard that dismissed as a myth a few times, born primarily of cultural conditioning, but never with any actual research either way)
I find that my (female) sex drive is incredibly mutable; I’ve been perfectly happy going a year with no sex, and at other times, in other circumstances (and with different available partners), been motivated to have sex daily. I suspect that the female sex drive is much more situational and partner-dependent than the male, and to model women as like men, but less horny, is a mistake.
Now I will do the Subjective Speculation Dance of Shame.
(electric slide) I like to shake my butt, I like to make stuff up (electric slide)
Is there published data? Maybe! Doesn’t matta! I’ll pull it out of my butt!
(butt shake!)
Now I will do the Subjective Speculation Dance of Shame.
(electric slide) I like to shake my butt, I like to make stuff up (electric slide) Is there published data? Maybe! Doesn’t matta! I’ll pull it out of my butt! (butt shake!)
(electric slide) I like to shake my butt, I like to make stuff up (electric slide) Is there published data? Maybe! Doesn’t matta! I’ll pull it out of my butt! (butt shake!)
In other words, to make all members of a poly society equally sexually satisfied, this society must have more women than men. With the same number of women than men, less successful men will be frustrated, even if all women are satisfied.
This is possible, though I would note that sex is just one of the things one gets from a romantic relationship. Even if a poly society would leave more men without sex, it might provide more men with things such as close companionship. It is not obvious which one is more important. (Companionship is far more important than sex for me, though I’m probably atypical for a male in that regard.)
It seems like most men do not want to invest much resources into child that is not biologically theirs.
I will note that, from my own reading, I am under the impression that (among animals in general) males will invest resources in any child that might be theirs, while ignoring/killing only those children that are definitely not.
As such I would be moderately surprised to discover that humans differed from this pattern, and cared only for children of known paternity.
males will invest resources in any child that might be theirs
The words “invest resources” mean something different for animals and humans. For animal male it simply means: allow the child walk on your territory; protect the child from predator attack; give the child some food. I would expect similar instincts from a human male.
The difference is, we expect much more from human males, which has no base in instincts. We expect human male to find a better-paying job (with longer working hours or less pleasant work), and use the money to support child’s various needs, such as e.g. education.
If you have a piece of bread in your hand, and there is a hungry 3 years old child (possibly biologically yours) near you, the instinct tells you to give the bread to the child. But the same instinct does not tell you to change your job so you can pay your 18 years old child better college. We give our children far more than what our instincts say, and we also care about them much longer.
I have come across a report of empirical observations that directly contradicts this assumption:
In his book “Polyamory: Roadmaps For The Clueless And Hopeful”, Anthony D. Ravenscroft states the observation that women have the stronger sex drive—It takes 3 men per women to get the women fully satisfied.
In his book “Polyamory: Roadmaps For The Clueless And Hopeful”, Anthony D. Ravenscroft states the observation that women have the stronger sex drive—It takes 3 men per women to get the women fully satisfied.
I have no qualms declaring that claim to be blatant bullshit.
I have yet to meet a woman who required sex more than three times daily (on an ongoing daily basis) in order to be satisfied and I would assert that women with that degree of insatiability or more would be rare outliers. Yet even that kind of pace is not hard to keep up (so to speak). While for most males the overwhelming biological imperative to seek sex is satisfied by less sex than that it takes only a modicum of accommodation or a hint of male pride to maintain a higher rate of sexual output.
I’m not here denying that women may have a higher sex drive. I would not even deny the possibility that some people may require being successfully pursued by three different partners (by count of number of mates not the potential sexual output thereof). I am saying that Ravenscroft massively undermines his own credibility when he tries to claim that it takes three males per woman in a given sexual system for the women to be fully satisfied. I deny that he has data that supports that and if he did produce such data I would defy it—with the expectation that it would be overwhelmed by other contradictory findings.
Wait, no, I take all that back. Women have ridiculously more powerful sex drives and can’t help but throw themselves at guys at every opportunity. <My personal experience as an extraordinarily attractive potential mate has provided such a significant selection effect that it has completely biased my view of the world.> Not only that but when in relationships women need massive volumes of sex to be satisfied. <Such is my prowess at eliciting attraction.>
Unfortunately, after writing a long reply I accidentally discovered that accidentally pressing Ctrl + W closes Firefox without asking. So I will repeat the essence:
When monogamy is a society’s official norm, polyamory is self-selected minority. Maybe the selection process now causes something that would disappear if more people become poly. For example, maybe for women with higher sex drive polyamory is more attractive. Also maybe for sexually passive men who enjoy the idea of their love having sex with another male (while emotionally staying in love with them) polyamory is attractive. This could explain how one woman could satisfy three men… if two of them are only watching.
Maybe women have the same sex drive as men, but still they are more picky. Even if a women would be able to fully sexually satisfy three top-quality men, I don’t assume that an average woman would do the same thing for three average men. Maybe she would rather wait in line for her “five minutes with alpha”. Most men would like the opportunity of having sex with many average women; women don’t dream about having sex with many average men.
But this is all just a speculation. I would like to see a polyamorous society that survives 10 years.
Anthony D. Ravenscroft states the observation that women have the stronger sex drive
I find that unsurprising, though folk wisdom suggests sex drive by gender varies greatly over age, so it’s weird to not see a qualification there.
By the folk theory, which I have no idea if any research supports, that would be an unsurprising finding for male and female subjects in their mid-to-late-thirties, but the opposite would be expected for male and female subjects in the 18-24 range.
At first sight it seems that those women are 4⁄5 available for other men in the group. But this assumes that men and women have the same sex drive on average. If we assume that men have stronger sex drive, or that their sex drive increases significantly when many women are sexually available to them (I am not a biologist, but I think both of this is true), then there is less than 4⁄5 availability of these women for the rest of group.
In other words, to make all members of a poly society equally sexually satisfied, this society must have more women than men. With the same number of women than men, less successful men will be frustrated, even if all women are satisfied. (Of course, if you are a woman, or if you are the most attractive man in your poly group, this is not your problem.)
EDIT: In essence, “one fifth of time” does not equal “one fifth of sex”. A woman may spend one fifth of her time having hot sex with the captain, and the remaining time in just-friends mode, or 90% just-friends mode, with the remaining men.
Or perhaps, their demands will increase, and the remaining men will seem even more pathetic.
It seems to me that for most men monogamy is better. For women, two topics to think about: children and age above 40.
When the children are born, do you want to test paternity or not? (But even if you won’t, some man will think that he is a father, and the others will think they are not. Or maybe, everyone will think that someone else was the father.) It seems like most men do not want to invest much resources into child that is not biologically theirs. Even if the man has one child with one woman, and three children with other woman, he may invest little into the first child.
If you are a young woman, it is important to note that the balance in “sex market” depends on the age. On average, younger women have higher sexual value than younger men, but older women have lower sexual value than older women. Thus we have so many young boys unable to find a girlfriend, and so many old women unable to find a partner (this imbalance is even worse because women on average live longer). Don’t assume that your “sex market” value will stay constant.
Both monogamy and polygamy have their benefits and risks. The risks of monogamy are well known, therefore I wrote about the risks of polygamy. (Risks of monogamy: choosing the wrong partner and not having enough data to realize it; also if your partner dies or leaves you, you start from zero.)
This is a little bit more complex.
Sexual desires are not a constant for each invidual person.
It seems (in the poly community) that awesome sexual experiences with one partner make one want more sexual things with the other partners rather than less.
Another, seperate point on biology:
The 5 women that are spending so much time with this alpha male will find their menstrual cycles becoming synchronised (assuming, of course, that they allow natural menstrual cycling). This will therefore mean that they are all at their most sexually active simultaneously.
Assuming that the peak sex drive of a woman is more than 1⁄5 of the constant male sex drive, this means that at least one of those 5 women will be unsatisfied during her days of peak sex-drive.
Which is an important fact in the context.
Menstrual synchrony is controversial.
Or you could just adjust the bisexuality / homosexuality rates… I dare say an all-men all-homosexual polyamorous group would have to be entirely stable, at least so long as we’re playing entirely to gender stereotypes.
(Is there any actual research about women being less interested in sex, by the way? I’ve heard that dismissed as a myth a few times, born primarily of cultural conditioning, but never with any actual research either way)
I find that my (female) sex drive is incredibly mutable; I’ve been perfectly happy going a year with no sex, and at other times, in other circumstances (and with different available partners), been motivated to have sex daily. I suspect that the female sex drive is much more situational and partner-dependent than the male, and to model women as like men, but less horny, is a mistake.
Now I will do the Subjective Speculation Dance of Shame.
(electric slide) I like to shake my butt, I like to make stuff up (electric slide) Is there published data? Maybe! Doesn’t matta! I’ll pull it out of my butt! (butt shake!)
Please consider writing full lyrics and choreography and putting this on youtube.
You guys I think I made the shame dance too fun.
I looked it up, but I still don’t understand what the electric slide is. I second Jack’s suggestion.
This is awesome :D
This is my new favorite comment. Thank you! ^_^
This is possible, though I would note that sex is just one of the things one gets from a romantic relationship. Even if a poly society would leave more men without sex, it might provide more men with things such as close companionship. It is not obvious which one is more important. (Companionship is far more important than sex for me, though I’m probably atypical for a male in that regard.)
Another possibly atypical male here:
To me, sex is a craving I occasionally get, but is no more pleasurable than any other fun activity.
Companionship is a constant need. I don’t always need someone there, but I always need to know that there would be someone with me if I needed them.
I will note that, from my own reading, I am under the impression that (among animals in general) males will invest resources in any child that might be theirs, while ignoring/killing only those children that are definitely not.
As such I would be moderately surprised to discover that humans differed from this pattern, and cared only for children of known paternity.
The words “invest resources” mean something different for animals and humans. For animal male it simply means: allow the child walk on your territory; protect the child from predator attack; give the child some food. I would expect similar instincts from a human male.
The difference is, we expect much more from human males, which has no base in instincts. We expect human male to find a better-paying job (with longer working hours or less pleasant work), and use the money to support child’s various needs, such as e.g. education.
If you have a piece of bread in your hand, and there is a hungry 3 years old child (possibly biologically yours) near you, the instinct tells you to give the bread to the child. But the same instinct does not tell you to change your job so you can pay your 18 years old child better college. We give our children far more than what our instincts say, and we also care about them much longer.
I have come across a report of empirical observations that directly contradicts this assumption:
In his book “Polyamory: Roadmaps For The Clueless And Hopeful”, Anthony D. Ravenscroft states the observation that women have the stronger sex drive—It takes 3 men per women to get the women fully satisfied.
I have no qualms declaring that claim to be blatant bullshit.
I have yet to meet a woman who required sex more than three times daily (on an ongoing daily basis) in order to be satisfied and I would assert that women with that degree of insatiability or more would be rare outliers. Yet even that kind of pace is not hard to keep up (so to speak). While for most males the overwhelming biological imperative to seek sex is satisfied by less sex than that it takes only a modicum of accommodation or a hint of male pride to maintain a higher rate of sexual output.
I’m not here denying that women may have a higher sex drive. I would not even deny the possibility that some people may require being successfully pursued by three different partners (by count of number of mates not the potential sexual output thereof). I am saying that Ravenscroft massively undermines his own credibility when he tries to claim that it takes three males per woman in a given sexual system for the women to be fully satisfied. I deny that he has data that supports that and if he did produce such data I would defy it—with the expectation that it would be overwhelmed by other contradictory findings.
Wait, no, I take all that back. Women have ridiculously more powerful sex drives and can’t help but throw themselves at guys at every opportunity. <My personal experience as an extraordinarily attractive potential mate has provided such a significant selection effect that it has completely biased my view of the world.> Not only that but when in relationships women need massive volumes of sex to be satisfied. <Such is my prowess at eliciting attraction.>
Unfortunately, after writing a long reply I accidentally discovered that accidentally pressing Ctrl + W closes Firefox without asking. So I will repeat the essence:
When monogamy is a society’s official norm, polyamory is self-selected minority. Maybe the selection process now causes something that would disappear if more people become poly. For example, maybe for women with higher sex drive polyamory is more attractive. Also maybe for sexually passive men who enjoy the idea of their love having sex with another male (while emotionally staying in love with them) polyamory is attractive. This could explain how one woman could satisfy three men… if two of them are only watching.
Maybe women have the same sex drive as men, but still they are more picky. Even if a women would be able to fully sexually satisfy three top-quality men, I don’t assume that an average woman would do the same thing for three average men. Maybe she would rather wait in line for her “five minutes with alpha”. Most men would like the opportunity of having sex with many average women; women don’t dream about having sex with many average men.
But this is all just a speculation. I would like to see a polyamorous society that survives 10 years.
I find that unsurprising, though folk wisdom suggests sex drive by gender varies greatly over age, so it’s weird to not see a qualification there.
By the folk theory, which I have no idea if any research supports, that would be an unsurprising finding for male and female subjects in their mid-to-late-thirties, but the opposite would be expected for male and female subjects in the 18-24 range.