...Some will object, that a comparison cannot fairly be made between the government of the male sex and the forms of unjust power which I have adduced in illustration of it, since these are arbitrary, and the effect of mere usurpation, while it on the contrary is natural. But was there ever any domination which did not appear natural to those who possessed it? There was a time when the division of mankind into two classes, a small one of masters and a numerous one of slaves, appeared, even to the most cultivated minds, to be natural, and the only natural, condition of the human race. No less an intellect, and one which contributed no less to the progress of human thought, than Aristotle, held this opinion without doubt or misgiving; and rested it on the same premises on which the same assertion in regard to the dominion of men over women is usually based, namely that there are different natures among mankind, free natures, and slave natures; that the Greeks were of a free nature, the barbarian races of Thracians and Asiatics of a slave nature. But why need I go back to Aristotle? Did not the slave-owners of the Southern United States maintain the same doctrine, with all the fanaticism with which men cling to the theories that justify their passions and legitimate their personal interests? Did they not call heaven and earth to witness that the dominion of the white man over the black is natural, that the black race is by nature incapable of freedom, and marked out for slavery? some [1] even going so far as to say that the freedom of manual labourers is an unnatural order of things anywhere. Again, the theorists of absolute monarchy have always affirmed it to be the only natural form of government; issuing from the patriarchal, which was the primitive and spontaneous form of society, framed on the model of the paternal, which is anterior to society itself, and, as they contend, the most natural authority of all. Nay, for that matter, the law of force itself, to those who could not plead any other has always seemed the most natural of all grounds for the exercise of authority. Conquering races hold it to be Nature’s own dictate that the conquered should obey the conquerors, or as they euphoniously paraphrase it, that the feebler and more unwarlike races should submit to the braver and manlier. The smallest acquaintance with human life in the middle ages, shows how supremely natural the dominion of the feudal nobility overmen of low condition appeared to the nobility themselves, and how unnatural the conception seemed, of a person of the inferior class claiming equality with them, or exercising authority over them. It hardly seemed less so to the class held in subjection. The emancipated serfs and burgesses, even in their most vigorous struggles, never made any pretension to a share of authority; they only demanded more or less of limitation to the power of tyrannising over them. So true is it that unnatural generally means only uncustomary, and that everything which is usual appears natural. The subjection of women to men being a universal custom, any departure from it quite naturally appears unnatural. But how entirely, even in this case, the feeling is dependent on custom, appears by ample experience. Nothing so much astonishes the people of distant parts of the world, when they first learn anything about England, as to be told that it is under a queen; the thing seems to them so unnatural as to be almost incredible. To Englishmen this does not seem in the least degree unnatural, because they are used to it; but they do feel it unnatural that women should be soldiers or Members of Parliament. In the feudal ages, on the contrary, war and politics were not thought unnatural to women, because not unusual; it seemed natural that women of the privileged classes should be of manly character, inferior in nothing but bodily strength to their husbands and fathers.
...When we consider how vast is the number of men, in any great country, who are little higher than brutes, and that this never prevents them from being able, through the law of marriage, to obtain a victim, the breadth and depth of human misery caused in this shape alone by the abuse of the institution swells to something appalling. Yet these are only the extreme cases. They are the lowest abysses, but there is a sad succession of depth after depth before reaching them. In domestic as in political tyranny, the case of absolute monsters chiefly illustrates the institution by showing that there is scarcely any horror which may not occur under it if the despot pleases, and thus setting in a strong light what must be the terrible frequency of things only a little less atrocious. Absolute fiends are as rare as angels, perhaps rarer: ferocious savages, with occasional touches of humanity, are however very frequent: and in the wide interval which separates these from any worthy representatives of the human species, how many are the forms and gradations of animalism and selfishness, often under an outward varnish of civilisation and even cultivation, living at peace with the law, maintaining a creditable appearance to all who are not under their power, yet sufficient often to make the lives of all who are so, a torment and a burthen to them! It would be tiresome to repeat the commonplaces about the unfitness of men in general for power, which, after the political discussions of centuries, everyone knows by heart, were it not that hardly anyone thinks of applying these maxims to the case in which above all others they are applicable, that of power, not placed in the hands of a man here and there, but offered to every adult male, down to the basest and most ferocious. It is not because a man is not known to have broken any of the Ten Commandments, or because he maintains a respectable character in his dealings with those whom he cannot compel to have intercourse with him, or because he does not fly out into violent bursts of ill-temper against those who are not obliged to bear with him, that it is possible to surmise of what sort his conduct will be in the unrestraint of home. Even the commonest men reserve the violent, the sulky, the undisguisedly selfish side of their character for those who have no power to withstand it. The relation of superiors to dependents is the nursery of these vices of character, which, wherever else they exist, are an overflowing from that source. A man who is morose or violent to his equals, is sure to be one who has lived among inferiors, whom he could frighten or worry into submission. If the family in its best forms is, as it is often said to be, a school of sympathy, tenderness, and loving forgetfulness of self, it is still oftener, as respects its chief, a school of wilfulness, overbearingness, unbounded selfish indulgence, and a double-dyed and idealised selfishness, of which sacrifice itself is only a particular form: the care for the wife and children being only care for them as parts of the man’s own interests and belongings, and their individual happiness being immolated in every shape to his smallest preferences. What better is to be looked for under the existing form of the institution? We know that the bad propensities of human nature are only kept within bounds when they are allowed no scope for their indulgence. We know that from impulse and habit, when not from deliberate purpose, almost everyone to whom others yield, goes on encroaching upon them, until a point is reached at which they are compelled to resist. Such being the common tendency of human nature; the almost unlimited power which present social institutions give to the man over at least one human being — the one with whom he resides, and whom he has always present — this power seeks out and evokes the latent germs of selfishness in the remotest corners of his nature — fans its faintest sparks and smouldering embers — offers to him a licence for the indulgence of those points of his original character which in all other relations he would have found it necessary to repress and conceal, and the repression of which would in time have become a second nature.
--Selections from John Stuart Mill’s The Subjection of Women (1869). It’s probably best read in its entirety; an amazing work ahead of its time, but written in a wall-of-text style that’s difficult to abridge for quotes.
(Optional exercise: apply Mill’s points on the sociopolitical situation of women in the 19th century to the situation of children today.)
Ehh.. Todays children are often subject to much more limited familial authority than were 19th century women. It is for example illegal to use physical force on them in a great many places.
My guess is extended pattern-matching on Eugine Nier’s typical post content, along with a huge helping of annoyance with the excluded middle.
“This is a reductio ad absurdum of Mill’s argument”
“you honestly favor treating 5-year olds as legal adults”.
Are these honestly the only two possible readings of the original post? If not, is it more likely—based on past history of all parties—to assume that Eugine Nier honestly could not conceive of a third option, or merely that a rhetorical tactic was being employed to make their opponent look bad?
Based on what is most likely occurring (evaluated, of course, differently by each person reading), is this post a flower or a weed?
Are these honestly the only two possible readings of the original post? If not, is it more likely—based on past history of all parties—to assume that Eugine Nier honestly could not conceive of a third option, or merely that a rhetorical tactic was being employed to make their opponent look bad?
Well, based to Multiheaded’s previous posts I wouldn’t be too surprised if he favored treating 5-year olds as legal adults. It’s possible he wants us to notice the difference between women and children and see why Mill’s argument doesn’t apply in the later case, but I find this unlikely given Multiheaded’s commenting history. In any case, this is the logical conclusion of his argument as stated, I was merely pointing this out. Of course, If you regard pointing out the implications of someone else’s argument as a dishonest rhetorical tactic, I see why you’d object.
Oh, hello! I wondered why my karma was starting to go down again. Welcome back!
I am downvoting this and all future complaining about Eugine that is not provoked by immediate context. Too many (ie. about a third) of your comments (and even posts) are attempts to shame people who chose to downvote you. In addition, instances like this one that are snide and sarcastic are particularly distasteful.
I incidentally suggest that giving Eugine just cause (as well as additional emotional incentive) to downvote you is unlikely to be the optimal strategy for reducing the number of downvotes you receive.
On a more empathetic note I know that the task of maintaining the moral high ground and mobilizing the tribe to take action to change the behaviour of a rival is a delicate and difficult one and often a cause for frustration and even disillusionment. A possibility you may consider is that you could accept the minor status hit for excessive complaining but take great care to make sure that each individual complaint is as graceful and inoffensive to third parties (such as myself) as possible. If you resist the urge to insert those oh so tempting additional barbs then you will likely find that you have far more leeway in terms of how much complaining people will accept from you and are more likely to receive the support of said third parties’ egalitarian instincts.
Note: The preceding paragraph is purely instrumental advice and should not be interpreted as normative endorsement (or dis-endorsement) of that particular “Grey-Arts” strategy. (But I would at least give unqualified normative endorsement of replacing “complaining + bitchiness” with “complaining + tact” in most cases.)
nod unfortunately, I am terrible at these sorts of plays. Thank you for your criticism, and I’ll attempt to behave more gracefully in the future.
EDIT: I’m going to go ahead and trigger your downvotes, now, because reviewing the situation, I feel like I need to speak in my own defense.
I consistently lose fourty to fifty karma over the course of a few minutes, once every few days. Posts which have no possible reason why someone would downvote them get downvoted. And I do not, as you put it, “shame people who chose to downvote me”. I mostly ask for an explanation why I got downvoted, so that I can improve. The ONLY time I have explicitly tried to shame someone who downvoted me was Eugine, and only after spending a very long time examining the situation and coming to the conclusion (p > 0.95) that Eugine was downvoting EVERYTHING I say, just because.
If you feel that that deserves further retributive downvoting, you are free to perform it to your heart’s content; I am powerless to stop you.
--Selections from John Stuart Mill’s The Subjection of Women (1869). It’s probably best read in its entirety; an amazing work ahead of its time, but written in a wall-of-text style that’s difficult to abridge for quotes.
(Optional exercise: apply Mill’s points on the sociopolitical situation of women in the 19th century to the situation of children today.)
[1] And by “some” Mill likely means Carlyle.
Are you trying to provide a reductio ad absurdum of Mill’s argument, or do you honestly favor treating 5-year olds as legal adults?
Ehh.. Todays children are often subject to much more limited familial authority than were 19th century women. It is for example illegal to use physical force on them in a great many places.
How comes six people downvoted this? While I can think of a few relevant differences between women then and children today, it’s not so obvious to me that they’d be so obvious to everybody as to justify unexplained downvotes.
My guess is extended pattern-matching on Eugine Nier’s typical post content, along with a huge helping of annoyance with the excluded middle.
“This is a reductio ad absurdum of Mill’s argument”
“you honestly favor treating 5-year olds as legal adults”.
Are these honestly the only two possible readings of the original post? If not, is it more likely—based on past history of all parties—to assume that Eugine Nier honestly could not conceive of a third option, or merely that a rhetorical tactic was being employed to make their opponent look bad?
Based on what is most likely occurring (evaluated, of course, differently by each person reading), is this post a flower or a weed?
Then you tend the garden.
Well, based to Multiheaded’s previous posts I wouldn’t be too surprised if he favored treating 5-year olds as legal adults. It’s possible he wants us to notice the difference between women and children and see why Mill’s argument doesn’t apply in the later case, but I find this unlikely given Multiheaded’s commenting history. In any case, this is the logical conclusion of his argument as stated, I was merely pointing this out. Of course, If you regard pointing out the implications of someone else’s argument as a dishonest rhetorical tactic, I see why you’d object.
Oh, hello! I wondered why my karma was starting to go down again. Welcome back!
I am downvoting this and all future complaining about Eugine that is not provoked by immediate context. Too many (ie. about a third) of your comments (and even posts) are attempts to shame people who chose to downvote you. In addition, instances like this one that are snide and sarcastic are particularly distasteful.
I incidentally suggest that giving Eugine just cause (as well as additional emotional incentive) to downvote you is unlikely to be the optimal strategy for reducing the number of downvotes you receive.
On a more empathetic note I know that the task of maintaining the moral high ground and mobilizing the tribe to take action to change the behaviour of a rival is a delicate and difficult one and often a cause for frustration and even disillusionment. A possibility you may consider is that you could accept the minor status hit for excessive complaining but take great care to make sure that each individual complaint is as graceful and inoffensive to third parties (such as myself) as possible. If you resist the urge to insert those oh so tempting additional barbs then you will likely find that you have far more leeway in terms of how much complaining people will accept from you and are more likely to receive the support of said third parties’ egalitarian instincts.
Note: The preceding paragraph is purely instrumental advice and should not be interpreted as normative endorsement (or dis-endorsement) of that particular “Grey-Arts” strategy. (But I would at least give unqualified normative endorsement of replacing “complaining + bitchiness” with “complaining + tact” in most cases.)
nod unfortunately, I am terrible at these sorts of plays. Thank you for your criticism, and I’ll attempt to behave more gracefully in the future.
EDIT: I’m going to go ahead and trigger your downvotes, now, because reviewing the situation, I feel like I need to speak in my own defense.
I consistently lose fourty to fifty karma over the course of a few minutes, once every few days. Posts which have no possible reason why someone would downvote them get downvoted. And I do not, as you put it, “shame people who chose to downvote me”. I mostly ask for an explanation why I got downvoted, so that I can improve. The ONLY time I have explicitly tried to shame someone who downvoted me was Eugine, and only after spending a very long time examining the situation and coming to the conclusion (p > 0.95) that Eugine was downvoting EVERYTHING I say, just because.
If you feel that that deserves further retributive downvoting, you are free to perform it to your heart’s content; I am powerless to stop you.
That sounds overconfident.