It sounds parodistic yet comes accross as weirdly workable. There is a voice in my head telling me I should not respect myself until I become more of a classical tough-guy type, full of courage and strength. However it does not sound like my father did. It sounds a lot like a teenage bully actually. My father sounded a lot more like show yourself respect by expecting a bit more courage or endurance from yourself. Hm. Carl Jung would have a field day with it.
It sounds parodistic yet comes accross as weirdly workable.
Two quotes come to mind (emphasis added) —
He therefore said: “Let me declare this Work under this title: ‘The obtaining of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel’”, because the theory implied in these words is so patently absurd that only simpletons would waste much time in analysing it. It would be accepted as a convention, and no one would incur the grave danger of building a philosophical system upon it.
[...] The mind is the great enemy; so, by invoking enthusiastically a person whom we know not to exist, we are rebuking that mind.
— Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice
ROSE: I have no comprehensible path. There’s nothing to overcome, no lesson to learn, no cathartic light at the end of this preposterous tunnel. ROSE: Not for me, at least! ROSE: I seriously have the DUMBEST arc anyone could conceivably imagine. DAVE: rose we dont have fuckin “arcs” we are just human beings
I am not sure about Crowley’s point—the mind being the great enemy as in the mind making all sorts of excuses and rationalizations? That is almost trivially true, however, I think using other parts of the mind to defeat these parts may work better than shutting the whole thing down because then what else can we work with?
It is similar to taking acid. Why do some, but only some people have really deep satori experiences from acid? Acid is just a hallucinogen. It is not supposed to do much. But sometimes the hallucinations overload and shut down big parts of the mind and then we pay attention to the rest and this can lead into the kinds of ego-loss, one-with-everything insights. However, isn’t it really a brute-force way? It’s like wearing a blindfold for months to improve our hearing.
But that one is about how myths and legends in the world seem to follow the same pattern. And then we saw Tolkien and George Lucas following it consciously with LOTR and Star Wars, and then Harry Potter, The Matrix etc. was modelled on those works. Cambell did figure out an ancient pattern for truly immersive entertainment, that one is for sure.
But did Campbell really come up with the idea that Average Guy could also use myths about legendary heroes to reflect upon and improve his own rather petty life? I don’t think in the past people were taking self-help advice from Heracles and Achilles or in the modern world from Neo and Luke Skywalker… it must have been obvious that you as Mr. Average Guy are not made of the same mold as them besides they are fiction anyway, right?
I don’t think in the past people were taking self-help advice from Heracles and Achilles or in the modern world from Neo and Luke Skywalker
I don’t know how the ancient Greeks related to their legends (although I’m sure that historians of the period do, and it would be worth knowing what they say), but The Matrix and Star Wars are certainly used in that way. Just google “red pill”, or “Do or do not. There is no try.” And these things aren’t just made up by the storytellers. The ideas have long histories.
Literature is full of such practical morality. That is one of its primary functions, from children’s fairy tales (“The Ugly Duckling”, “The Little Red Hen”, “Stone Soup”) to high literature (e.g. Dostoevsky, Dickens, “1984″). Peter Watts (“Blindsight”) isn’t just writing an entertaining story, he’s presenting ideas about the nature of mind and consciousness. Golden age sensuwunda SF is saying “we can and will make the world and ourselves vastly better”, and has indeed been an inspiration to some of those who went out and did that.
Whenever you think you’re just being entertained, look again.
But did Campbell really come up with the idea that Average Guy could also use myths about legendary heroes to reflect upon and improve his own rather petty life?
I’m not sure to what extend Campbell personally advocated the Hero’s journey to be used by “Mr. Average Guy” but various NLP folks I know refer to the Hero’s journey in that regard.
Steven Gilligan and Roberts Dilts wrote http://www.amazon.com/The-Heros-Journey-Voyage-Discovery/dp/1845902866
Of course then the average guy stops being the average guy. In Eliezers words, he starts taking heroic responsibility.
What I always feel like a character should do in that situation (technology permitting) is to turn on a tape recorder, fight the villain, and listen to what they have to say afterwards. And then try to figure out how to fix the problems the villain is pointing out instead of just feeling bad about themselves.
I guess that sort of works for this. You could write down what the voice in your head is saying, and then read it when you’re not feeling terrible about yourself. And discuss it with other people and see what they think.
The problem with just trusting someone else is that unless you are already on your deathbed, and sometimes not even then, there is nothing you can say where their response will be “killing yourself would probably be a good idea”. There is no correlation between their response and the truth, so asking them is worthless.
Is EY’s Cogntive Trope Therapy for real or a parody?
It sounds parodistic yet comes accross as weirdly workable. There is a voice in my head telling me I should not respect myself until I become more of a classical tough-guy type, full of courage and strength. However it does not sound like my father did. It sounds a lot like a teenage bully actually. My father sounded a lot more like show yourself respect by expecting a bit more courage or endurance from yourself. Hm. Carl Jung would have a field day with it.
Two quotes come to mind (emphasis added) —
— Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice
— Homestuck
I am not sure about Crowley’s point—the mind being the great enemy as in the mind making all sorts of excuses and rationalizations? That is almost trivially true, however, I think using other parts of the mind to defeat these parts may work better than shutting the whole thing down because then what else can we work with?
It is similar to taking acid. Why do some, but only some people have really deep satori experiences from acid? Acid is just a hallucinogen. It is not supposed to do much. But sometimes the hallucinations overload and shut down big parts of the mind and then we pay attention to the rest and this can lead into the kinds of ego-loss, one-with-everything insights. However, isn’t it really a brute-force way? It’s like wearing a blindfold for months to improve our hearing.
One might ask the same question of HPMOR.
He’s being serious, but not solemn.
It’s for real.
If you want to dig deeper into the idea of seeing your life as a story read the Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell and associated literature.
But that one is about how myths and legends in the world seem to follow the same pattern. And then we saw Tolkien and George Lucas following it consciously with LOTR and Star Wars, and then Harry Potter, The Matrix etc. was modelled on those works. Cambell did figure out an ancient pattern for truly immersive entertainment, that one is for sure.
But did Campbell really come up with the idea that Average Guy could also use myths about legendary heroes to reflect upon and improve his own rather petty life? I don’t think in the past people were taking self-help advice from Heracles and Achilles or in the modern world from Neo and Luke Skywalker… it must have been obvious that you as Mr. Average Guy are not made of the same mold as them besides they are fiction anyway, right?
I don’t know how the ancient Greeks related to their legends (although I’m sure that historians of the period do, and it would be worth knowing what they say), but The Matrix and Star Wars are certainly used in that way. Just google “red pill”, or “Do or do not. There is no try.” And these things aren’t just made up by the storytellers. The ideas have long histories.
Literature is full of such practical morality. That is one of its primary functions, from children’s fairy tales (“The Ugly Duckling”, “The Little Red Hen”, “Stone Soup”) to high literature (e.g. Dostoevsky, Dickens, “1984″). Peter Watts (“Blindsight”) isn’t just writing an entertaining story, he’s presenting ideas about the nature of mind and consciousness. Golden age sensuwunda SF is saying “we can and will make the world and ourselves vastly better”, and has indeed been an inspiration to some of those who went out and did that.
Whenever you think you’re just being entertained, look again.
I’m not sure to what extend Campbell personally advocated the Hero’s journey to be used by “Mr. Average Guy” but various NLP folks I know refer to the Hero’s journey in that regard. Steven Gilligan and Roberts Dilts wrote http://www.amazon.com/The-Heros-Journey-Voyage-Discovery/dp/1845902866 Of course then the average guy stops being the average guy. In Eliezers words, he starts taking heroic responsibility.
What I always feel like a character should do in that situation (technology permitting) is to turn on a tape recorder, fight the villain, and listen to what they have to say afterwards. And then try to figure out how to fix the problems the villain is pointing out instead of just feeling bad about themselves.
I guess that sort of works for this. You could write down what the voice in your head is saying, and then read it when you’re not feeling terrible about yourself. And discuss it with other people and see what they think.
The problem with just trusting someone else is that unless you are already on your deathbed, and sometimes not even then, there is nothing you can say where their response will be “killing yourself would probably be a good idea”. There is no correlation between their response and the truth, so asking them is worthless.
I think it’s completely serious, and a good idea. And “si non è vero, è ben trovato”. I’m never without my Cudgel of Modus Tollens.