″ In order to let go of those defense mechanisms, we need to put ourselves in a place that demonstrably will take care of us in an ontological crisis.”
While I agree with statement by itself. In relationship to the Monastic Academy which is here called the monastery, this is laughable at best and at it’s worst deeply untrue and dangerously misguided. This does not track with my own experience; or over a dozen other testimonies from former residents and apprentices that have left the monastery over the last 2-3 years in traumatic states whom have not been cared for or even followed up with to see if they are ok by the organization you are speaking about. While some speak to the positive benefits they received via simple living, community, and meditation practice as you’ve described here; many have also had suffering significant pschological challenges and needed professional support to heal and deprogram the unhealthy beliefs and behaviors they learned within the organization. So should you or any other person consider the Monastic Academy trustworthy in the face of an ontological crisis? Especially when the environment itself, more often than not drives one into a state ontological crisis that is neither normal or healthy.
So how do we decide what and whom is trustworthy? How much evidence do we need? Do we trust our own direct experience, first and foremost? Do we ignore others direct experiences when they don’t align with ours? Do we trust the data? Do we trust reasoning, mathematics, and ethics to show us what’s ethical?
The question of ” what is trustworthy?” Is of incredible importance. All too often those whose view of things has been skewed by the privileges given to them by society or within a group(I.e class, race, gender, wealth and social influence) miss the mark entirely on this question because they have never had the good fortune of learning the true nature of the people who surround them, and too often they have not even learned there own. The only way to know someone’s true nature is to watch how they treat others from whom they have nothing to gain but their humanity. Few recognize that this is the most valuable gift of all.
Yes it’s true, there are people who have spent time at the Monastic Academy and have experienced psychological challenges after leaving.
For me, I enjoyed the simplicity and the living in community and the meditation practice as you say. The training style at the Monastic Academy seemed to really really really work for me. There were tons of difficult moments, but underneath that I felt safe, actually, in a way that I don’t think I ever had before. That safety was really critical for me to face some deep doubts that I’d been carrying for a really long time.
But there are also people who have left Monastic Academy feeling very hurt.
I guess sometimes it’s good to push through doubt and pain in order to get to the other side, while other times it’s better to listen to doubt and pain because it’s telling you that something isn’t working for you.
I do think it’s worth finding somewhere that can provide deep sanctuary. I definitely did find that at the Monastic Academy. There are others who seem not to have.
Instead they spend their days performing mental gymnastics and writing about enigmas without getting anywhere, grasping at a sense of meaning, purpose, and connection that perpetually alludes them because they cannot meet with the suffering that is right in front of them and inside of them.
Hmm. Since you refer to “writing about enigmas without getting anywhere” and the title of the post is “three enigmas at the heart of our reasoning”, I understand this to be a critique of my character (?) or perhaps just a personal attack. Was that your intention?
over a dozen other testimonies from former residents and apprentices that have left the monastery over the last 2-3 years in traumatic states
Have you personally talked to over 12 people who have left the monastic academy in the past 2-3 years and they each reported their experience was strongly negative or overall negative?
I belong to a small group of ex-residents and former apprentices that have been interviewing other community members, have made attempts to create space for dialogue with leadership about issues, have requested a mediation process with a third party mediator be opened for the organization to hear the feedback of current and former program participants, and are now looking at what steps to take to address concerns for safety and well-being of current and future members. There have been fifteen accounts given (12 being within the last 2-3 years) in which people report some or strongly negative experiences that have from my point of view established that these are not one off issues. This is not a large monastery and so this is a significant number of people whom experienced high levels of psychological distress in which participants (i.e. panic attacks, mania, psychosis, flashbacks) There are others who’ve stated that they had negative experiences behind this whom were not open to bring interviewed and/or did not want to have any contact with the organization whatsoever. Some have also spoken to receiving some positive benefits from meditation practice and other aspects of training. All of whom have spoken to unhealthy group and teacher/student dynamics that are consistent with many high demand groups. These former members also reported experiencing significant psychological disturbances while and after training at the MA and difficulty reintegrating back into the world after leaving. Some of these accounts I have heard and received directly (6), while other interviews have been conducted by other group members.
Apparently there’s been some confusion, I’m Herschel (I’m leaving out my last name so I’m not trivially googled), the author of this comment is a different person [I’ve removed their name for their privacy]. I was a resident for two years at MAPLE but I haven’t written anything about it publicly, besides a couple brief things on my facebook account.
I understand your desire to make a distinction about your identity and clear up confusion about your thoughts, actions being confused with statements I’ve made. Here you note that you state that “I’m leaving out my last name so I’m not trivially googled” and then you go on to disclose personally identifying information about me and the names I go by apparently without regard for how others may choose to use this information. While I am generally not interested in hiding my identity, my involvement in activities, and thoughts please consider both the discrepancy in your statement/actions and that my choice to speak publicly to what others have not could put me at risk. Please afford me the same level of privacy, safety, and respect that you do yourself.
We have to be careful to separate the school from the insights. Whether the school has problems seems almost entirely unrelated to the philosophical questions posed. It does provide some context for the proposal to have safe spaces though. Indeed, I think these two topics should probably be separated more clearly.
I think you have a good point Gunnar—these two things could be better separated. In light of such, I have decided to share some thoughts inspired by the Monastic Academy about organizational practices and how that relates the “big picture” separately.
″ In order to let go of those defense mechanisms, we need to put ourselves in a place that demonstrably will take care of us in an ontological crisis.”
While I agree with statement by itself. In relationship to the Monastic Academy which is here called the monastery, this is laughable at best and at it’s worst deeply untrue and dangerously misguided. This does not track with my own experience; or over a dozen other testimonies from former residents and apprentices that have left the monastery over the last 2-3 years in traumatic states whom have not been cared for or even followed up with to see if they are ok by the organization you are speaking about. While some speak to the positive benefits they received via simple living, community, and meditation practice as you’ve described here; many have also had suffering significant pschological challenges and needed professional support to heal and deprogram the unhealthy beliefs and behaviors they learned within the organization. So should you or any other person consider the Monastic Academy trustworthy in the face of an ontological crisis? Especially when the environment itself, more often than not drives one into a state ontological crisis that is neither normal or healthy.
So how do we decide what and whom is trustworthy? How much evidence do we need? Do we trust our own direct experience, first and foremost? Do we ignore others direct experiences when they don’t align with ours? Do we trust the data? Do we trust reasoning, mathematics, and ethics to show us what’s ethical?
The question of ” what is trustworthy?” Is of incredible importance. All too often those whose view of things has been skewed by the privileges given to them by society or within a group(I.e class, race, gender, wealth and social influence) miss the mark entirely on this question because they have never had the good fortune of learning the true nature of the people who surround them, and too often they have not even learned there own. The only way to know someone’s true nature is to watch how they treat others from whom they have nothing to gain but their humanity. Few recognize that this is the most valuable gift of all.
Yes it’s true, there are people who have spent time at the Monastic Academy and have experienced psychological challenges after leaving.
For me, I enjoyed the simplicity and the living in community and the meditation practice as you say. The training style at the Monastic Academy seemed to really really really work for me. There were tons of difficult moments, but underneath that I felt safe, actually, in a way that I don’t think I ever had before. That safety was really critical for me to face some deep doubts that I’d been carrying for a really long time.
But there are also people who have left Monastic Academy feeling very hurt.
I guess sometimes it’s good to push through doubt and pain in order to get to the other side, while other times it’s better to listen to doubt and pain because it’s telling you that something isn’t working for you.
I do think it’s worth finding somewhere that can provide deep sanctuary. I definitely did find that at the Monastic Academy. There are others who seem not to have.
Hmm. Since you refer to “writing about enigmas without getting anywhere” and the title of the post is “three enigmas at the heart of our reasoning”, I understand this to be a critique of my character (?) or perhaps just a personal attack. Was that your intention?
Have you personally talked to over 12 people who have left the monastic academy in the past 2-3 years and they each reported their experience was strongly negative or overall negative?
I belong to a small group of ex-residents and former apprentices that have been interviewing other community members, have made attempts to create space for dialogue with leadership about issues, have requested a mediation process with a third party mediator be opened for the organization to hear the feedback of current and former program participants, and are now looking at what steps to take to address concerns for safety and well-being of current and future members. There have been fifteen accounts given (12 being within the last 2-3 years) in which people report some or strongly negative experiences that have from my point of view established that these are not one off issues. This is not a large monastery and so this is a significant number of people whom experienced high levels of psychological distress in which participants (i.e. panic attacks, mania, psychosis, flashbacks) There are others who’ve stated that they had negative experiences behind this whom were not open to bring interviewed and/or did not want to have any contact with the organization whatsoever. Some have also spoken to receiving some positive benefits from meditation practice and other aspects of training. All of whom have spoken to unhealthy group and teacher/student dynamics that are consistent with many high demand groups. These former members also reported experiencing significant psychological disturbances while and after training at the MA and difficulty reintegrating back into the world after leaving. Some of these accounts I have heard and received directly (6), while other interviews have been conducted by other group members.
Apparently there’s been some confusion, I’m Herschel (I’m leaving out my last name so I’m not trivially googled), the author of this comment is a different person [I’ve removed their name for their privacy]. I was a resident for two years at MAPLE but I haven’t written anything about it publicly, besides a couple brief things on my facebook account.
I understand your desire to make a distinction about your identity and clear up confusion about your thoughts, actions being confused with statements I’ve made. Here you note that you state that “I’m leaving out my last name so I’m not trivially googled” and then you go on to disclose personally identifying information about me and the names I go by apparently without regard for how others may choose to use this information. While I am generally not interested in hiding my identity, my involvement in activities, and thoughts please consider both the discrepancy in your statement/actions and that my choice to speak publicly to what others have not could put me at risk. Please afford me the same level of privacy, safety, and respect that you do yourself.
We have to be careful to separate the school from the insights. Whether the school has problems seems almost entirely unrelated to the philosophical questions posed. It does provide some context for the proposal to have safe spaces though. Indeed, I think these two topics should probably be separated more clearly.
I think you have a good point Gunnar—these two things could be better separated. In light of such, I have decided to share some thoughts inspired by the Monastic Academy about organizational practices and how that relates the “big picture” separately.
The Colonization of Cults, Nonprofit Organizations, and Society—LessWrong