It’s plain difficult to consume a lot of calories if you cut out meat and dairy products,
Is that so? What about french fries, donuts, and soda? Those things can be made without animal products, no?
Plus if you are changing your habits for some ethical reasons, you are not a hedonist to begin with.
Well that may be part of it. Perhaps part of it is that vegetarians spend a lot of mental energy thinking about what they are eating. My impression is that fat people tend to consume a lot of food without being fully consciously aware of it.
It seems to me that huge majority of people who are successful at maintaining their weight never subscribe to any defined diets or calorie counting.
Are you talking about former fat people or never fat people?
Is that so? What about french fries, donuts, and soda? Those things can be made without animal products, no?
Haven’t got a deep frier, not a fan of french fries anyhow (not to the point of eating, what, 600 grams of them a day plus other stuff), prefer to eat at home. Also, sweets are a dessert. edit: and correct me if i’m wrong but with french fries something like half the calories come from fat, which is too much fat. Then, there’s silicone oil, trans fats, a wide variety of carcinogenic chemicals produced at high temperatures....
Are you talking about former fat people or never fat people?
Never fat or only ever fat due to a depression or the like.
edit: with the presently obese, if they are to lose weight and keep it low, that would imply future behaviour inconsistent with past behaviour under same conditions, i.e. simply is not going to happen without significant psychological changes or the like.
Haven’t got a deep frier, not a fan of french fries anyhow (not to the point of eating, what, 600 grams of them a day plus other stuff), prefer to eat at home. Also, sweets are a dessert. edit: and correct me if i’m wrong but with french fries something like half the calories come from fat, which is too much fat. Then, there’s silicone oil, trans fats, a wide variety of carcinogenic chemicals produced at high temperatures....
That suggests to me that convenience and identity are playing important roles. One of the things which has changed over the last 20 or 30 years is that it’s become a lot more convenient to eat junk food. At least that’s my impression. As to the latter, it’s hard to imagine a vegetarian walking into a typical fast food joint and ordering french fries—even if the fries are cooked in vegetable oil.
Never fat or only ever fat due to a depression or the like.
Then I agree with you. Having studied this stuff pretty carefully, I’ve come to the conclusion that everyone has an internal system which regulates his urges to eat or not eat. For people who are naturally thin, the system works well even in the modern obesogenic environment. If that system does not work well, then conscious effort must be applied to override that system. Which is very difficult to do day after day after day. Which is why most weight loss attempts ultimately fail.
i.e. simply is not going to happen without significant psychological changes or the like.
Yes, I agree with this. The fantasy is that one can make a few simple changes like reducing carbohydrate intake or eating oil every morning and thinness will naturally and easily follow. The reality is that one’s psychology—broadly defined—must change.
If that system does not work well, then conscious effort must be applied to override that system. Which is very difficult to do day after day after day. Which is why most weight loss attempts ultimately fail.
I think you’re looking wrong at it. Say, someone reaches the weight of X and then diets down to Y<X . At X they self regulated (consciously), at Y they didn’t before, and won’t in the future. There wasn’t a complete failure to self regulate at all, the set point was set very high though.
edit: that is to say, it is when at the weight X that they want to be at the weight Y. At the weight Y, from prior history, they don’t care to be at the weight Y . I’m looking at it from the point of trying to deduce control system’s properties, and it seems we can explain it by modelling the control as stateless (except for the controlled variable) over long periods of time. edit2: i.e. I see the dieting behaviour as caused by weight; the weight drops, after some time the habits are lost and the behaviour ceases.
edit: that is to say, it is when at the weight X that they want to be at the weight Y. At the weight Y, from prior history, they don’t care to be at the weight Y
Want is a quite tricky word.
A week ago I exposed my body to physical stress. Then I ate a fat meal and didn’t drink anything.
When I layed down to sleep.
I felt a lot of movement around my intestines and I noticed my swollen belly. It wasn’t like me belly hurt but it wasn’t a state in which I could sleep. After a while I went to the toilet and had diarrhea.
That went for around half an hour and I was thinking about what has to happen to come to a state where I could sleep reasonably well. The idea that there was still foot in my stomach and that would probably be part of the problem popped into my mind.
Shortly after that idea popped into my mind I got nauseous. Even through my reaction was “No, I don’t want to throw up”, my body didn’t care at the point. The process was set in motion and there was nothing I could do to stop it.
I did make a conscious judgement that my stomach should be empty, but I can’t say that I wanted to throw up.
I think you’re looking wrong at it. Say, someone reaches the weight of X and then diets down to Y<X . At X they self regulated (consciously), at Y they didn’t before, and won’t in the future. There wasn’t a complete failure to self regulate at all, the set point was set very high though.
Well then why do a lot of diets fail after only a few weeks when the person has lost just a couple pounds? It’s hard to believe that a small change in weight would have a big impact on preferences.
It’s hard to believe that a small change in weight would have a big impact on preferences.
Indeed, but that also applies to starting on the diet as a response to increased weight in the first place. Some combination of the last few pounds and environmental change makes people decide on a diet, then the pounds are lost plus the environment restores (e.g. it was newyear and there was a newyear resolution, cultural pressure, which ceased).
Indeed, but that also applies to starting on the diet as a response to increased weight in the first place. Some combination of the last few pounds and environmental change makes people decide on a diet, then the pounds are lost plus the environment restores (e.g. it was newyear and there was a newyear resolution, cultural pressure, which ceased).
Well can we agree that in late January, after our hypothetical fatty has lost a few pounds, he still wants to lose more weight?
And that under your model, in late January that desire has become diminished compared to some other drive?
And that under your model, in late January that desire has become diminished compared to some other drive?
Yes. In my model, an action is a response to the current conditions (Markov process), meaning that in same conditions, same actions tend to be taken.
I think I see the disparity between my model and conventional model. The conventional model seems to be that the individual formed a strong desire on new year, then this desire inexplicably waned a lot. My model is that usually the individual had a strong desire in early December, which got a little stronger in January, exceeding a threshold, and got a little weaker in February, dropping back below threshold.
Yes. In my model, an action is a response to the current conditions (Markov process), meaning that in same conditions, same actions tend to be taken.
In that case, your model does not seem to contradict my position. I assert that it’s difficult to use conscious effort for an extended period of time to override intuitive eating urges. I do not dispute that various factors such as loss of initial enthusiasm; initial success; opportunities to break one’s diet; stressful events; etc. are what proximately cause this breakdown of willpower.
Is that so? What about french fries, donuts, and soda? Those things can be made without animal products, no?
Well that may be part of it. Perhaps part of it is that vegetarians spend a lot of mental energy thinking about what they are eating. My impression is that fat people tend to consume a lot of food without being fully consciously aware of it.
Are you talking about former fat people or never fat people?
Haven’t got a deep frier, not a fan of french fries anyhow (not to the point of eating, what, 600 grams of them a day plus other stuff), prefer to eat at home. Also, sweets are a dessert. edit: and correct me if i’m wrong but with french fries something like half the calories come from fat, which is too much fat. Then, there’s silicone oil, trans fats, a wide variety of carcinogenic chemicals produced at high temperatures....
Apparently, it is a common experience
Though I do cook baked potatoes quite often.
Never fat or only ever fat due to a depression or the like.
edit: with the presently obese, if they are to lose weight and keep it low, that would imply future behaviour inconsistent with past behaviour under same conditions, i.e. simply is not going to happen without significant psychological changes or the like.
That suggests to me that convenience and identity are playing important roles. One of the things which has changed over the last 20 or 30 years is that it’s become a lot more convenient to eat junk food. At least that’s my impression. As to the latter, it’s hard to imagine a vegetarian walking into a typical fast food joint and ordering french fries—even if the fries are cooked in vegetable oil.
Then I agree with you. Having studied this stuff pretty carefully, I’ve come to the conclusion that everyone has an internal system which regulates his urges to eat or not eat. For people who are naturally thin, the system works well even in the modern obesogenic environment. If that system does not work well, then conscious effort must be applied to override that system. Which is very difficult to do day after day after day. Which is why most weight loss attempts ultimately fail.
Yes, I agree with this. The fantasy is that one can make a few simple changes like reducing carbohydrate intake or eating oil every morning and thinness will naturally and easily follow. The reality is that one’s psychology—broadly defined—must change.
I think you’re looking wrong at it. Say, someone reaches the weight of X and then diets down to Y<X . At X they self regulated (consciously), at Y they didn’t before, and won’t in the future. There wasn’t a complete failure to self regulate at all, the set point was set very high though.
edit: that is to say, it is when at the weight X that they want to be at the weight Y. At the weight Y, from prior history, they don’t care to be at the weight Y . I’m looking at it from the point of trying to deduce control system’s properties, and it seems we can explain it by modelling the control as stateless (except for the controlled variable) over long periods of time. edit2: i.e. I see the dieting behaviour as caused by weight; the weight drops, after some time the habits are lost and the behaviour ceases.
Want is a quite tricky word.
A week ago I exposed my body to physical stress. Then I ate a fat meal and didn’t drink anything. When I layed down to sleep.
I felt a lot of movement around my intestines and I noticed my swollen belly. It wasn’t like me belly hurt but it wasn’t a state in which I could sleep. After a while I went to the toilet and had diarrhea.
That went for around half an hour and I was thinking about what has to happen to come to a state where I could sleep reasonably well. The idea that there was still foot in my stomach and that would probably be part of the problem popped into my mind.
Shortly after that idea popped into my mind I got nauseous. Even through my reaction was “No, I don’t want to throw up”, my body didn’t care at the point. The process was set in motion and there was nothing I could do to stop it.
I did make a conscious judgement that my stomach should be empty, but I can’t say that I wanted to throw up.
Well then why do a lot of diets fail after only a few weeks when the person has lost just a couple pounds? It’s hard to believe that a small change in weight would have a big impact on preferences.
Indeed, but that also applies to starting on the diet as a response to increased weight in the first place. Some combination of the last few pounds and environmental change makes people decide on a diet, then the pounds are lost plus the environment restores (e.g. it was newyear and there was a newyear resolution, cultural pressure, which ceased).
Well can we agree that in late January, after our hypothetical fatty has lost a few pounds, he still wants to lose more weight?
And that under your model, in late January that desire has become diminished compared to some other drive?
Yes. In my model, an action is a response to the current conditions (Markov process), meaning that in same conditions, same actions tend to be taken.
I think I see the disparity between my model and conventional model. The conventional model seems to be that the individual formed a strong desire on new year, then this desire inexplicably waned a lot. My model is that usually the individual had a strong desire in early December, which got a little stronger in January, exceeding a threshold, and got a little weaker in February, dropping back below threshold.
In that case, your model does not seem to contradict my position. I assert that it’s difficult to use conscious effort for an extended period of time to override intuitive eating urges. I do not dispute that various factors such as loss of initial enthusiasm; initial success; opportunities to break one’s diet; stressful events; etc. are what proximately cause this breakdown of willpower.