I think it is a level subtler than that. Value is downstream from utility—we consider something good because it is good for something. Most values are instrumental. Terminal values are a bit hanging in the air. The theist solution is to call terminal values simply instrumental values for god’s purposes and call it a day. I.e. humans practically being gods property or tools. That way all values are instrumental, all goods are good for somethings and it is coherent.
The interesting part here is that if feels seductively intelligent. After all most people just consider those things values they feel remotely good about. To see most values as instrumental—for example, to see democracy as not simply something to cheer for, but a tool with advantages and disadvantages—is much more intelligent approach. To be able to tie down every value as instrumental, just some of them are not human instruments, feels super logical. It is a textbook case of “feeling rational” and this is part of why I used to be tempted towards theism in the past, as it makes everything make sense. “We have the UN in order to not have thermonuclear war! We want to avoid thermonuclear war so that we are not extinct! Why shouln’t we be extinct? It would be the end of all problems and suffering… but maybe god has plans with us and he is our rightful owner! So let’s support the UN!” You can see how elegant and tied-down it is.
The proper atheist solution is nowhere that elegant. I can only argue from a Heideggerian “we are thrown in the world and must cope”. We are the accidents of evolution thrown in a world that is an accident of the big bang or quantum many-worlds. We cope however we can. Part of that coping is calling those values that are most likely to make life bearable for most terminal values. It is not elegant at all, and I can understand why it is less attractive than theism. But it is more probably true.
It’s only coherent if you don’t expect it to solve the problem (rather than hide it from your view). It’s only attractive if you expect God to fulfill your own terminal values. You should be able to see contrary hypotheses, since you say one of them is close to being true (or at least more likely).
ETA: Actually, the view discussed in the parent could probably be made coherent, but not sound for the true natural numbers, at least not without straightforwardly defining the word “morality” to mean something else which I don’t care about. You could insist that there exists a number encoding a proof that (for example) all attempts at utility functions other than God’s contain contradictions, or otherwise imply God’s values. This would be a lie—but if you’re careful not to accept anything which could prove the lie (by showing certain truths about natural numbers, ‘real’ numbers, and the linked theorem), it would have a “non-standard model” containing a non-standard object encoding a “proof”.
Yes, the Alien God metaphor is a good one, it is very close to the Heideggerian “we are thrown into the world and must cope somehow, cannot really expect elegant solutions” I subscribe to.
I am not at all sure it is a given that people have, just happen to have terminal values. I think you are assuming too much here, perhaps, a very autonomous upbringing where you are expected to form opinions instead of letting your behavior guided by the prevailing opinion without affirming or denying it.
For example some old guy used to go to church and then stopped it because there was some kind of an altercation. At no point he decided whether he is theist or atheist, to him the question felt like taking a position about the many-words interpretation in quantum physics: something far above his “pay grade”, he wanted to leave the question to experts, he never had belief and never had unbelief. He did not think he is entitled to either of them. Rather he did the church-going as a social ritual and then stopped it when there were certain social problems. (I don’t remember the details, it was something about him being a teetotaller as he disliked drunken fist-fights and somehow the churchiest guys were the drunkiest and then it did not go down well.)
I don’t really understand the part about natural numbers.
I have trouble seeing two things: It seems to me not all theists reject terminal values, for example, beatitude (transcendental happiness) for some theists is a terminal value, for others serving God is terminal (so to speak); and it also seems theism can be reconciled with Heidegger by being a terminal value itself freely chosen in order to save me from my geworfenheit.
“Save me from my geworfenheit” being a customary household phrase. :)
I think it is a level subtler than that. Value is downstream from utility—we consider something good because it is good for something. Most values are instrumental. Terminal values are a bit hanging in the air. The theist solution is to call terminal values simply instrumental values for god’s purposes and call it a day. I.e. humans practically being gods property or tools. That way all values are instrumental, all goods are good for somethings and it is coherent.
The interesting part here is that if feels seductively intelligent. After all most people just consider those things values they feel remotely good about. To see most values as instrumental—for example, to see democracy as not simply something to cheer for, but a tool with advantages and disadvantages—is much more intelligent approach. To be able to tie down every value as instrumental, just some of them are not human instruments, feels super logical. It is a textbook case of “feeling rational” and this is part of why I used to be tempted towards theism in the past, as it makes everything make sense. “We have the UN in order to not have thermonuclear war! We want to avoid thermonuclear war so that we are not extinct! Why shouln’t we be extinct? It would be the end of all problems and suffering… but maybe god has plans with us and he is our rightful owner! So let’s support the UN!” You can see how elegant and tied-down it is.
The proper atheist solution is nowhere that elegant. I can only argue from a Heideggerian “we are thrown in the world and must cope”. We are the accidents of evolution thrown in a world that is an accident of the big bang or quantum many-worlds. We cope however we can. Part of that coping is calling those values that are most likely to make life bearable for most terminal values. It is not elegant at all, and I can understand why it is less attractive than theism. But it is more probably true.
It’s only coherent if you don’t expect it to solve the problem (rather than hide it from your view). It’s only attractive if you expect God to fulfill your own terminal values. You should be able to see contrary hypotheses, since you say one of them is close to being true (or at least more likely).
ETA: Actually, the view discussed in the parent could probably be made coherent, but not sound for the true natural numbers, at least not without straightforwardly defining the word “morality” to mean something else which I don’t care about. You could insist that there exists a number encoding a proof that (for example) all attempts at utility functions other than God’s contain contradictions, or otherwise imply God’s values. This would be a lie—but if you’re careful not to accept anything which could prove the lie (by showing certain truths about natural numbers, ‘real’ numbers, and the linked theorem), it would have a “non-standard model” containing a non-standard object encoding a “proof”.
Yes, the Alien God metaphor is a good one, it is very close to the Heideggerian “we are thrown into the world and must cope somehow, cannot really expect elegant solutions” I subscribe to.
I am not at all sure it is a given that people have, just happen to have terminal values. I think you are assuming too much here, perhaps, a very autonomous upbringing where you are expected to form opinions instead of letting your behavior guided by the prevailing opinion without affirming or denying it.
For example some old guy used to go to church and then stopped it because there was some kind of an altercation. At no point he decided whether he is theist or atheist, to him the question felt like taking a position about the many-words interpretation in quantum physics: something far above his “pay grade”, he wanted to leave the question to experts, he never had belief and never had unbelief. He did not think he is entitled to either of them. Rather he did the church-going as a social ritual and then stopped it when there were certain social problems. (I don’t remember the details, it was something about him being a teetotaller as he disliked drunken fist-fights and somehow the churchiest guys were the drunkiest and then it did not go down well.)
I don’t really understand the part about natural numbers.
I have trouble seeing two things: It seems to me not all theists reject terminal values, for example, beatitude (transcendental happiness) for some theists is a terminal value, for others serving God is terminal (so to speak); and it also seems theism can be reconciled with Heidegger by being a terminal value itself freely chosen in order to save me from my geworfenheit.
“Save me from my geworfenheit” being a customary household phrase. :)