There are some sense here that tend to be entangled that can be hard to tear appart. This might be shooting of in a tangent.
In Magic the Gathering colors its easy to have positive associations with the color white, but white does not mean good. The properties and skills described in the parent post are prosocial and it is sensible to have system that places great value in these things. But white can also be evil and things that white calls evil are not neccesarily so.
In Dungeons and Dragons one might play a character that is of the aligment Evil. But then every character is the hero of their story and as the player one has to wonder what kind of psychological principles goes into how the character chooses. To me essentially an evil character is living for themselfs. If their win condition is also another beings lose condition they choose to win.
In Babylon 5 the more shady side has the theme of asking their negotiating partners “What do you want?” and then either pointing out a course of action that gets then that or offering a deal that gets them that. On its face this seems neutral and even like a definition of moral contemplation. However this gets antagonistic shades in that often the cost of the deal is a great destruction or betrayal. And when not offering deals but pointing out a way to get the outcome acting in that way has great externalities for other actors. The logic goes something like “the thing that you want it possible and in your power”, “You do not choose to receive that outcome”, “So do you actually want the thing or not?”,”Probably not because its turned down”. This can kind of bait universe occupants to form a more narrow will than they otherwise would “Yes, I actually do want the thing and will bite whatever bullet”.
In this kind of “black morality” there is a corresponding skill of “being effective” in being more aware whether your actions are furthering your interest in contrast of what other ask and care about. If you know you get what you want and don’t know what your effect is on others Black is perfectly happy ot be effective. In contrast if White knows that others are not harmed and doesn’t know what they want out of life White is perfectly happy to be safe and inoffensive. Ofcourse with increased awereness less details are left to ignorance and more are under the influence of concious choice.
In Upload they live in a world where automobiles have a setting of “protect occupant”or “protect pedestrian”. I think making this choice is good but I don’t know whether one option or the other can be condenmend. In particular I am not sure it is proper to try to make people choose “protect others”. Like forbidding self-preservation is not a good idea. But people should trade their preservation against other goods. But it should be their choice.
But yeaht the poitn was that “good citizen” is separate from “good person” and moral progress can look like deconstructing bits where you are by ignorance or accident prosocial. Or rather than being a balance between self and others, caring-about-self and caring-about-others can be skills that can be strong together. But suppressing or dismissing caring-about-self is seldom productive. Its more that the opportunity cost of skipping on growing self-aweress is usually sensible in furthering the more rare caring-about-others.
There are some sense here that tend to be entangled that can be hard to tear appart. This might be shooting of in a tangent.
In Magic the Gathering colors its easy to have positive associations with the color white, but white does not mean good. The properties and skills described in the parent post are prosocial and it is sensible to have system that places great value in these things. But white can also be evil and things that white calls evil are not neccesarily so.
In Dungeons and Dragons one might play a character that is of the aligment Evil. But then every character is the hero of their story and as the player one has to wonder what kind of psychological principles goes into how the character chooses. To me essentially an evil character is living for themselfs. If their win condition is also another beings lose condition they choose to win.
In Babylon 5 the more shady side has the theme of asking their negotiating partners “What do you want?” and then either pointing out a course of action that gets then that or offering a deal that gets them that. On its face this seems neutral and even like a definition of moral contemplation. However this gets antagonistic shades in that often the cost of the deal is a great destruction or betrayal. And when not offering deals but pointing out a way to get the outcome acting in that way has great externalities for other actors. The logic goes something like “the thing that you want it possible and in your power”, “You do not choose to receive that outcome”, “So do you actually want the thing or not?”,”Probably not because its turned down”. This can kind of bait universe occupants to form a more narrow will than they otherwise would “Yes, I actually do want the thing and will bite whatever bullet”.
In this kind of “black morality” there is a corresponding skill of “being effective” in being more aware whether your actions are furthering your interest in contrast of what other ask and care about. If you know you get what you want and don’t know what your effect is on others Black is perfectly happy ot be effective. In contrast if White knows that others are not harmed and doesn’t know what they want out of life White is perfectly happy to be safe and inoffensive. Ofcourse with increased awereness less details are left to ignorance and more are under the influence of concious choice.
In Upload they live in a world where automobiles have a setting of “protect occupant”or “protect pedestrian”. I think making this choice is good but I don’t know whether one option or the other can be condenmend. In particular I am not sure it is proper to try to make people choose “protect others”. Like forbidding self-preservation is not a good idea. But people should trade their preservation against other goods. But it should be their choice.
But yeaht the poitn was that “good citizen” is separate from “good person” and moral progress can look like deconstructing bits where you are by ignorance or accident prosocial. Or rather than being a balance between self and others, caring-about-self and caring-about-others can be skills that can be strong together. But suppressing or dismissing caring-about-self is seldom productive. Its more that the opportunity cost of skipping on growing self-aweress is usually sensible in furthering the more rare caring-about-others.