Thanks, and thanks for your thoughtful reply! I had to look up the definition of parsimony, but I think that idea helps a lot.
So: I’m noting your de-conversion story cites emotional reasons and thoughts about morality, rather than epistemic parsimony (the idea that simpler explanations are more likely). Personally, I see this as a “wrong reason” to de-convert.
My story was just a story, really. Not an argument. I probably did de-convert for emotional reasons, but also because I recognized that I only believed what I believed because I was raised believing it. Obviously, there was a chance that I just happened to be born into the one true religion, but I figured if that were the case, I would find my way back there as I examined the evidence. I wanted to start from a clean slate.
The shortcut to refute that is “but why did the alien god want to do such a science project?
Yeah, you’re right. Although I didn’t even consider “moral niceness” or lack of since it really wouldn’t affect our lives in any way. But okay, I’m already convinced it’s not the “simplest” answer… I will edit that part out :)
I’m already convinced it’s not the “simplest” answer
I love how people on lesswrong change minds so readily
And I’m still not very satisfied with the idea of something being an end-in-itself:
So, this feeling of dis-satisfaction you are reporting is commonly termed “Existential Angst”. “Existentialism” is the idea that morality has no basis in anything deeper than the individual. It’s common after deconversions and is related to the whole “God is Dead” Nietzsche thing, and the question of how we can start rebuilding a framework for morality beyond mere hedonism from that point.
The reason I thought explicitly introducing parsimony into your thinking toolkit would help is that maybe once one internalizes that consciousness is complicated and not something which just happens, perhaps the “alien god” will get a little less alien. At some point, I think you’ll stop feeling like your preferences and values were arbitrarily chosen by cold random unfeeling processes, and start feeling like the physics driving the “alien god” is really just a natural part of you, and that your values and preferences are a really integral part of you and you start treating those things with an almost religious reverence. I think once you really understand all that goes into making you conscious and where “good’ comes from, the whole thing stops being cold and unfeeling and starts being warm and satisfying.
I was never a Christian or theist in the first place so I didn’t go through precisely the same experience (I was loosely Hindu and I suspect transitioning from pantheism to reductionism is much easier, especially given the focus on destroying the illusion of a coherent “I” in vedic religions)...But, sometime around entering high school my views on topics such as stem cells and abortion and animal treatment began to shift due to acquiring a reductionist view of consciousness. So I think understanding, at least in principle, how moral stuff and consciousness can be implemented by ordinary non-conscious matter and getting comfy with the idea that souls are constructed out of solid brain tissue that we can see and touch helps a lot when one grapples with moral questions and what they are rooted in.
I love how people on lesswrong change minds so readily
Hahahaha I completely interpreted this as sarcasm at first. I’m obviously still getting used to lesswrongers myself :)
So, this feeling of dis-satisfaction you are reporting is commonly termed “Existential Angst”. “Existentialism” is the idea that morality has no basis in anything deeper than the individual. It’s common after deconversions and is related to the whole “God is Dead” Nietzsche thing, and the question of how we can start rebuilding a framework for morality beyond mere hedonism from that point.
Yeah. Do you know what got me started on this whole idea? I linked to it at the bottom of the article, but I was asking if there was any good reason to pursue ambition over total hedonism, and I now think that the answer is “goodness is an end-in-itself too” and I’m pretty okay with it.
At some point, I think you’ll stop feeling like your preferences and values were arbitrarily chosen by cold random unfeeling processes, and start feeling like the physics driving the “alien god” is really just a natural part of you, and that your values and preferences are a really integral part of you and you start treating those things with an almost religious reverence. I think once you really understand all that goes into making you conscious and where “good’ comes from, the whole thing stops being cold and unfeeling and starts being warm and satisfying.
Wow, I really like how you put that. Other people have tried to share a similar concept with me, but it always seemed cheesy and superficial. It never really started to sink in until now. I think it was the words “natural” and “warm” that did it for me. So thanks!
I linked to it at the bottom of the article, but I was asking if there was any good reason to pursue ambition over total hedonism, and I now think that the answer is “goodness is an end-in-itself too” and I’m pretty okay with it.
The way I look at it is, I’m good because that is what I prefer. There are many possible futures. I prefer some of those futures more than the others. I try my best to choose my favorite future with my actions. “Goodness” is part of what I prefer to happen, which is why I choose it. (And a version of me which didn’t prefer goodness wouldn’t be me, preferring goodness is a pretty big part of what goes into the definition of “me”.)
Wow, I really like how you put that. Other people have tried to share a similar concept with me, but it always seemed cheesy and superficial. It never really started to sink in until now. I think it was the words “natural” and “warm” that did it for me. So thanks!
Very glad I could be helpful! I find Neil D.Tyson / Sagan-esque talk kinda cheesy too. But I remember when I was a kid dabbling in philosophy, thinking hard about free will and monitoring my own thoughts for any trace of randomness, and suddenly it just became really clear that my thoughts and feelings followed predictable processes and there wasn’t any sharp boundary between the laws governing objects and the laws governing minds. It was kind of a magical moment, I felt pretty connected to the universe and all that jazz. It is cheesy, but it’s pretty hard to talk about these sorts of spiritual-ish experiences without sounding cheesy.
Thanks, and thanks for your thoughtful reply! I had to look up the definition of parsimony, but I think that idea helps a lot.
My story was just a story, really. Not an argument. I probably did de-convert for emotional reasons, but also because I recognized that I only believed what I believed because I was raised believing it. Obviously, there was a chance that I just happened to be born into the one true religion, but I figured if that were the case, I would find my way back there as I examined the evidence. I wanted to start from a clean slate.
Yeah, you’re right. Although I didn’t even consider “moral niceness” or lack of since it really wouldn’t affect our lives in any way. But okay, I’m already convinced it’s not the “simplest” answer… I will edit that part out :)
I love how people on lesswrong change minds so readily
So, this feeling of dis-satisfaction you are reporting is commonly termed “Existential Angst”. “Existentialism” is the idea that morality has no basis in anything deeper than the individual. It’s common after deconversions and is related to the whole “God is Dead” Nietzsche thing, and the question of how we can start rebuilding a framework for morality beyond mere hedonism from that point.
The reason I thought explicitly introducing parsimony into your thinking toolkit would help is that maybe once one internalizes that consciousness is complicated and not something which just happens, perhaps the “alien god” will get a little less alien. At some point, I think you’ll stop feeling like your preferences and values were arbitrarily chosen by cold random unfeeling processes, and start feeling like the physics driving the “alien god” is really just a natural part of you, and that your values and preferences are a really integral part of you and you start treating those things with an almost religious reverence. I think once you really understand all that goes into making you conscious and where “good’ comes from, the whole thing stops being cold and unfeeling and starts being warm and satisfying.
I was never a Christian or theist in the first place so I didn’t go through precisely the same experience (I was loosely Hindu and I suspect transitioning from pantheism to reductionism is much easier, especially given the focus on destroying the illusion of a coherent “I” in vedic religions)...But, sometime around entering high school my views on topics such as stem cells and abortion and animal treatment began to shift due to acquiring a reductionist view of consciousness. So I think understanding, at least in principle, how moral stuff and consciousness can be implemented by ordinary non-conscious matter and getting comfy with the idea that souls are constructed out of solid brain tissue that we can see and touch helps a lot when one grapples with moral questions and what they are rooted in.
Hahahaha I completely interpreted this as sarcasm at first. I’m obviously still getting used to lesswrongers myself :)
Yeah. Do you know what got me started on this whole idea? I linked to it at the bottom of the article, but I was asking if there was any good reason to pursue ambition over total hedonism, and I now think that the answer is “goodness is an end-in-itself too” and I’m pretty okay with it.
Wow, I really like how you put that. Other people have tried to share a similar concept with me, but it always seemed cheesy and superficial. It never really started to sink in until now. I think it was the words “natural” and “warm” that did it for me. So thanks!
The way I look at it is, I’m good because that is what I prefer. There are many possible futures. I prefer some of those futures more than the others. I try my best to choose my favorite future with my actions. “Goodness” is part of what I prefer to happen, which is why I choose it. (And a version of me which didn’t prefer goodness wouldn’t be me, preferring goodness is a pretty big part of what goes into the definition of “me”.)
Very glad I could be helpful! I find Neil D.Tyson / Sagan-esque talk kinda cheesy too. But I remember when I was a kid dabbling in philosophy, thinking hard about free will and monitoring my own thoughts for any trace of randomness, and suddenly it just became really clear that my thoughts and feelings followed predictable processes and there wasn’t any sharp boundary between the laws governing objects and the laws governing minds. It was kind of a magical moment, I felt pretty connected to the universe and all that jazz. It is cheesy, but it’s pretty hard to talk about these sorts of spiritual-ish experiences without sounding cheesy.