Again, the point of this post was not to argue that goodness exists. I understand that people are mostly selfish, and that even the ones who seem altruistic could be mostly motivated by warm fuzzies and avoiding feelings of guilt, or fitting in with their cultures. So I’m not saying we can find goodness in every action, or even most actions… but I am saying we can find it as the ultimate motivator in at least a few actions.
We live in the most peaceful time in history. Is this current peace and decrease in imperialism part of a positive trend, or just a high point on a crazy zigzag line? Have there been other long periods of (relative) peacefulness back in history?
You disliked my comment. Why? Are you saying goodness is not genetic at all? Or that history makes it soo obvious that culture is the only significant factor, that I should shrug off any studies that show goodness seems partially genetic and not allow them increase my optimism in any way?
Oh, yeah.… thanks for answering (embarrassed blush for not using Google and not remembering about that even though I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it before)
Um. You are forgetting the various wars of the Ottoman Empire. And the Russian Empire. And the French revolution with associated aftershocks. And the Germans (e.g. the Austro-Prussian war). And once we get out of Europe, there were wars aplenty in the Western hemisphere, extremely bloody rebellions in China (the Taiping Rebellion) and India (the Indian Rebellion of 1857), etc. etc.
I’m assuming those minor wars don’t count here for the same reason els isn’t counting things like the Korean and Vietnam wars, the various wars in the Middle East, or the civil wars associated with the War on Drugs.
Edit: Oh yes, also the various de/post-colonial wars, the wars in the Congo, etc.
What do you mean by goodness? If by goodness you mean what els (or more generarly your culture considers “good” then yes, goodness has a large cultural component.
On the other hand, as in this thread, you mean a willingness to sacrifice for what one believes to be a good cause, then yes it probably has a large generic component. Except, “what one believes to be a good cause” has a large cultural component.
For example, as Lumifer mensioned suicide bombers blowing themselves up to spread the true faith. Or the Nazis, who as the tide of war turned against them, diverted resources from the war effort to making sure future generations of Europeans will have fewer Jews corrupting their culture, even if they’re rulled by those ungrateful Allies.
In the modern world, goodness is generally understood as wanting others to be happy and not suffer. Sounds like the Golden Rule, as most people want to be happy and not suffer themselves, and goodness is understood as wishing the same for others. To be fair, it does look like a little bit of a narrow view, I remember Roger Scruton remarking that if your philosophy is equally suitable for humans and swine then you may need to rethink something (i.e. happy as a pig in the mud cannot really be the only terminal value, wishing it for everybody cannot be the only terminal goodness), but this is the social consensus today.
Except, “what one believes to be a good cause” has a large cultural component.
This is true. Sometimes people think they know what’s best for society and are wrong.
Anyway, I don’t know how much of our culture’s seeming to care about others is cultural vs. genetic. I think it’s unlikely to be 100% vs. 0%, but I’m not making any further claims than that. If you say that goodness doesn’t exist at all, ever, that no one really naturally cares about anyone other than themselves, I’ll disagree, but I have no evidence to back this up; as far as I know, both of us would just be guessing at what subconsciously motivates people...
I think that’s probably a good point. You would say that genetics has more to do with caring for those close to us, and culture has more to do with caring for strangers we’ll never meet, right?
Anyway, I got back from listening to this podcast and would recommend it if you’re interested! I liked it and learned some things. Here’s the blurb, as you can see it’s relevant to this whole discussion:
“Compassion is a universal virtue, but is it innate or taught? Have we lost touch with it? Can we be better at it? In this hour, TED speakers explore compassion: its roots, its meaning and its future.”
Again, the point of this post was not to argue that goodness exists. I understand that people are mostly selfish, and that even the ones who seem altruistic could be mostly motivated by warm fuzzies and avoiding feelings of guilt, or fitting in with their cultures. So I’m not saying we can find goodness in every action, or even most actions… but I am saying we can find it as the ultimate motivator in at least a few actions.
We live in the most peaceful time in history. Is this current peace and decrease in imperialism part of a positive trend, or just a high point on a crazy zigzag line? Have there been other long periods of (relative) peacefulness back in history?
You disliked my comment. Why? Are you saying goodness is not genetic at all? Or that history makes it soo obvious that culture is the only significant factor, that I should shrug off any studies that show goodness seems partially genetic and not allow them increase my optimism in any way?
Yes.
Oh, yeah.… thanks for answering (embarrassed blush for not using Google and not remembering about that even though I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it before)
Or more reacently, the period between the Congress of Vienna and WWI.
Um. You are forgetting the various wars of the Ottoman Empire. And the Russian Empire. And the French revolution with associated aftershocks. And the Germans (e.g. the Austro-Prussian war). And once we get out of Europe, there were wars aplenty in the Western hemisphere, extremely bloody rebellions in China (the Taiping Rebellion) and India (the Indian Rebellion of 1857), etc. etc.
I’m assuming those minor wars don’t count here for the same reason els isn’t counting things like the Korean and Vietnam wars, the various wars in the Middle East, or the civil wars associated with the War on Drugs.
Edit: Oh yes, also the various de/post-colonial wars, the wars in the Congo, etc.
I think you’re confusing “it was a peaceful and VERY successful century for Great Britain” with “it was the time of peace in the world”.
It was about as peaceful as the current time.
What do you mean by goodness? If by goodness you mean what els (or more generarly your culture considers “good” then yes, goodness has a large cultural component.
On the other hand, as in this thread, you mean a willingness to sacrifice for what one believes to be a good cause, then yes it probably has a large generic component. Except, “what one believes to be a good cause” has a large cultural component.
For example, as Lumifer mensioned suicide bombers blowing themselves up to spread the true faith. Or the Nazis, who as the tide of war turned against them, diverted resources from the war effort to making sure future generations of Europeans will have fewer Jews corrupting their culture, even if they’re rulled by those ungrateful Allies.
In the modern world, goodness is generally understood as wanting others to be happy and not suffer. Sounds like the Golden Rule, as most people want to be happy and not suffer themselves, and goodness is understood as wishing the same for others. To be fair, it does look like a little bit of a narrow view, I remember Roger Scruton remarking that if your philosophy is equally suitable for humans and swine then you may need to rethink something (i.e. happy as a pig in the mud cannot really be the only terminal value, wishing it for everybody cannot be the only terminal goodness), but this is the social consensus today.
Ah, then you might like “Град обреченный” (The doomed city) by A&B Strugatsky:)
This is true. Sometimes people think they know what’s best for society and are wrong.
Anyway, I don’t know how much of our culture’s seeming to care about others is cultural vs. genetic. I think it’s unlikely to be 100% vs. 0%, but I’m not making any further claims than that. If you say that goodness doesn’t exist at all, ever, that no one really naturally cares about anyone other than themselves, I’ll disagree, but I have no evidence to back this up; as far as I know, both of us would just be guessing at what subconsciously motivates people...
Depends on which ‘others’.
I think that’s probably a good point. You would say that genetics has more to do with caring for those close to us, and culture has more to do with caring for strangers we’ll never meet, right?
Anyway, I got back from listening to this podcast and would recommend it if you’re interested! I liked it and learned some things. Here’s the blurb, as you can see it’s relevant to this whole discussion:
“Compassion is a universal virtue, but is it innate or taught? Have we lost touch with it? Can we be better at it? In this hour, TED speakers explore compassion: its roots, its meaning and its future.”