A principled, honest person would lie in a game of Diplomacy or Junta, or other similar games. Lying is part of the game. As I noted elsewhere in this thread, I strongly dislike the idea of playing these games within some real-world metagame framework.
Further, I’d take a positive inference from someone who said, “I will lie for my own benefit in a Diplomacy game,′ because it’s clear to me that they are playing the same game I am. I have an awfully strong reputation for principled honesty (says me), but I’ll tell you right now: When I promise you that Russia and I are sworn enemies and I desperately need you to move northward to fight the Red Menace, I may be moving in from the south to take some of your neglected property. For the good of the world, of course.
And if you say afterward that I am a dishonest person, you need to play a different game. Or maybe I do. But you’re just wrong in considering me dishonest.
Or maybe I did misread this. Please correct my misinterpretation if I did.
You are. This isn’t about being a “principled, honest person”. It’s about winning.
I have an awfully strong reputation for principled honesty (says me), but I’ll tell you right now: When I promise you that Russia and I are sworn enemies and I desperately need you to move northward to fight the Red Menace, I may be moving in from the south to take some of your neglected property. For the good of the world, of course.
When I said “exactly zero” I was saying it with emphasis. You, given your stance, literally do not have the ability to communicate at all in a game theoretic sense without costly signalling. This doesn’t mean you are a bad person and I definitely don’t want to shame you into ‘better’ behavior. Because being unable to communicate effectively sometimes makes you lose, which makes me win.
I’m considering now a situation in which ‘Russia’ (it was a game of risk, not Diplomacy per se) is a rival of mine and also an immediate potentially overwhelming threat to a neighbour of mine. I had power enough to defeat both of them, but it would be costly to me. I told the third party that I would not attack him on a different front without giving him a full turn warning. It didn’t require a compact, any sort of agreement between us. It was just a fact. That player could believe me and move all his forces to fight Russia. Your word, however, would have been nothing. Russia would have weakened you sufficiently that another enemy would have overwhelmed you.
I understand that you are playing a meta-game in which you shame people out of things like taking vengeance when it does not benefit them. That is your prerogative. I speak here not of what people should do, merely what works. Alicorn’s declaration was regarding what her word meant in regard to whatever out of game arrangements she may make. I merely point out that sacrificing her ability to speak honestly and be believed in game is a strict disadvantage within said context. This is something that is counter-intuitive to many people—which is why I made a note.
First off, you’ve perhaps misread my vengeance comment. In-game vengeance may well be proper gaming; you’re just not going to get a palpable carry-over for it into the next game. There’s no shaming of the vengeful at all.
Secondly, my commentary still has substantial value in a Diplomacy game. Trust, but verify and all. Diplomacy’s about talking (usually; there are no-press games.) If you walked into one of my games, you’d have no advantage whatsoever for whatever trusty goodness you think you have.
Thirdly, I still view the intrusion of real-world considerations onto game ethics as undesirable. If it’s Survivor and you don’t eat if someone doesn’t kill the rabbit, then it’s a different situation. But each game has it’s own rules; if you communicate your bridge hand through hand signals, you’re a scummy cheat—even if it helps you win. I don’t do that, because it’s wrong. Certainly, making private real-world side deals strikes me as cheating, and would be in my circle. Trying to cash in on a rep for real-world honesty strikes me as misguided.
you communicate your bridge hand through hand signals, you’re a scummy cheat—even if it helps you win. I don’t do that, because it’s wrong. Certainly, making private real-world side deals strikes me as cheating
Bridge specifies that communicating information about your hand is against the rules; Diplomacy says that making deals is specifically part of the rules. Diplomacy doesn’t provide an enforceable contract, sure, but that just means that finding a method of creating enforceable contracts gives you an advantage.
I must be misreading this.
A principled, honest person would lie in a game of Diplomacy or Junta, or other similar games. Lying is part of the game. As I noted elsewhere in this thread, I strongly dislike the idea of playing these games within some real-world metagame framework.
Further, I’d take a positive inference from someone who said, “I will lie for my own benefit in a Diplomacy game,′ because it’s clear to me that they are playing the same game I am. I have an awfully strong reputation for principled honesty (says me), but I’ll tell you right now: When I promise you that Russia and I are sworn enemies and I desperately need you to move northward to fight the Red Menace, I may be moving in from the south to take some of your neglected property. For the good of the world, of course.
And if you say afterward that I am a dishonest person, you need to play a different game. Or maybe I do. But you’re just wrong in considering me dishonest.
Or maybe I did misread this. Please correct my misinterpretation if I did.
You are. This isn’t about being a “principled, honest person”. It’s about winning.
When I said “exactly zero” I was saying it with emphasis. You, given your stance, literally do not have the ability to communicate at all in a game theoretic sense without costly signalling. This doesn’t mean you are a bad person and I definitely don’t want to shame you into ‘better’ behavior. Because being unable to communicate effectively sometimes makes you lose, which makes me win.
I’m considering now a situation in which ‘Russia’ (it was a game of risk, not Diplomacy per se) is a rival of mine and also an immediate potentially overwhelming threat to a neighbour of mine. I had power enough to defeat both of them, but it would be costly to me. I told the third party that I would not attack him on a different front without giving him a full turn warning. It didn’t require a compact, any sort of agreement between us. It was just a fact. That player could believe me and move all his forces to fight Russia. Your word, however, would have been nothing. Russia would have weakened you sufficiently that another enemy would have overwhelmed you.
I understand that you are playing a meta-game in which you shame people out of things like taking vengeance when it does not benefit them. That is your prerogative. I speak here not of what people should do, merely what works. Alicorn’s declaration was regarding what her word meant in regard to whatever out of game arrangements she may make. I merely point out that sacrificing her ability to speak honestly and be believed in game is a strict disadvantage within said context. This is something that is counter-intuitive to many people—which is why I made a note.
That doesn’t seem quite right to me.
First off, you’ve perhaps misread my vengeance comment. In-game vengeance may well be proper gaming; you’re just not going to get a palpable carry-over for it into the next game. There’s no shaming of the vengeful at all.
Secondly, my commentary still has substantial value in a Diplomacy game. Trust, but verify and all. Diplomacy’s about talking (usually; there are no-press games.) If you walked into one of my games, you’d have no advantage whatsoever for whatever trusty goodness you think you have.
Thirdly, I still view the intrusion of real-world considerations onto game ethics as undesirable. If it’s Survivor and you don’t eat if someone doesn’t kill the rabbit, then it’s a different situation. But each game has it’s own rules; if you communicate your bridge hand through hand signals, you’re a scummy cheat—even if it helps you win. I don’t do that, because it’s wrong. Certainly, making private real-world side deals strikes me as cheating, and would be in my circle. Trying to cash in on a rep for real-world honesty strikes me as misguided.
I hope this helps clarify my position.
--JRM
Bridge specifies that communicating information about your hand is against the rules; Diplomacy says that making deals is specifically part of the rules. Diplomacy doesn’t provide an enforceable contract, sure, but that just means that finding a method of creating enforceable contracts gives you an advantage.
We do not agree.