looking at the answers you have given to people, and the comments I have got on my own reply to this post, I was wondering if I read your post in a specific light, and went through it more in-depth.
Reading your post again with this in mind, I notice that I am really confused by some issues.
Here they are:
Our questions were problem-solving endeavors saturated with sympathy; we wanted to know what went wrong precisely to help others avoid the same fate.
Maybe I am misunderstanding this sentence, but if you ask someone ‘what went wrong’ to help alleviate further victimization—isn’t that gathering information on what advice to give, and not about giving advice? This might be a small thing, but it is something I noticed.
Kathleen Stock charges right into deconstructing the surprisingly enduring ritual of affixing the “victim-blaming” reprimand to any advice aimed at reducing the risk of sexual assault.
There seems to be no doubt that many people blame some rape victims for what happens to them, irrationally. In one 2010 survey, more than half of respondents thought that “drinking to excess” or “dressing provocatively” made rape victims more responsible for the outcome. Yet it is rapists who are responsible for their crimes.[...] From the paragraph before the one you quoted.
Maybe there is some statistics on this, with regard to bike theft too. I would imagine the things that have been mentioned in the comments already, like having an expensive bike/what lock(s) you used to where you parked it—would be something people would be prone to blame the victims for.
Still, isn’t there a clear distinction between the explicit goal of your OP and the text by Kathleen Stock? She is talking about giving advice to women (and her sons) that are ‘pre-victimized’, and you saying that the goal is to give advice to ‘post-victimized’ people. She isn’t saying you should talk to victims like that, the title is “Telling women how to cut the risk of rape is anything but sexist.” not telling Victims. So there seems to be a sort of conflating of the two in your text, and I would really prefer it if you made it extensively clear which one you are talking about, as they are extremely different issues. There is a difference between “any advice aimed at reducing the risk of sexual assault” and “any advice aimed at reducing the risk of a repeat of sexual assault.” Two different situations, best not get them conflated.
Imparting wisdom on the implacable chain of consequences is about the most compassionate thing you could do.
This goes back to the conflation. If you are talking about pre-victimization, I would say that it could be helpful information—but not a compassionate thing in itself. If we are talking about post-victimization, there are many issues you are dealing with, not to mention problematic physical/emotional issues—neither of which learning about the ‘implacable chain of consequences’ will help you with.
They can choose to accept that advice, and if it is sound then they’ll be met with the disastrous outcome of…not having their bike stolen.
That was all I was confused about when it came to your post.
Your post seems to align more with ‘Preventing’ victimization from happening, so wouldn’t it be better to build on that, as that seems more coherent with the source you use.
As such, I must admit that it is very hard to read a post like this, that even if indirectly, compares Bike Theft and Rape. If you are either a survivor or secondary survivor, the after effects of trauma goes from terrible to hellish. There are also secondary issues like pregnancy, transmission of diseases, PTSD symptoms and stigma, to name a few.
Caerulea-Lawrence
Sidenote: Thanks to @Firinn and to @Said Achmiz for making this comment a reality. The former for their empathic listening, which was essential for me to regain my clarity and groundedness. The latter for their willingness to interact with me, and do what I would describe as “throwing wrenches into my mental faculty”, which irks me in such a way that it helps me with my fundamental rationality work. I would have not been able to write this without either of you. Thank you.
Maybe I am misunderstanding this sentence, but if you ask someone ‘what went wrong’ to help alleviate further victimization—isn’t that gathering information on what advice to give, and not about giving advice? This might be a small thing, but it is something I noticed.
I don’t understand the difference. You can’t give someone advice if you have no idea what happened to them.
Regarding the distinction between pre & post-victimization, I agree the two circumstances are not identical but the advice for the two situations will have a significant amount of overlap. “Make sure to use a u-lock” is good advice for all cyclists in the city, including those who just had their bike stolen because an insufficient lock tends to be the most common failure point in my experience.
I wouldn’t like to get advice if I lost a bike, I would like empathic support, care, understanding and a friendly hug.
I agree that a different tact might be necessary for post-victimization, but I flatly don’t understand the aversion to advice. I mentioned a friend who locked up a very expensive bike with a dog collar chain, thinking it would be enough. Her bike was stolen within 5 minutes. She ended up buying the same bike again within a week, and it would’ve been absolutely cruel to not warn her that she should get something stronger than a dog collar chain.
Lastly, I fully agree that rape is far more traumatic than a bike theft! The purpose of analogies is to pare down the common elements to avoid confusing what motivates our positions on each respective issue. That’s precisely why I picked something relatively trivial like bike theft, it doesn’t stop anyone from adding distinguishing factors.
Hello again ymeskhout,
looking at the answers you have given to people, and the comments I have got on my own reply to this post, I was wondering if I read your post in a specific light, and went through it more in-depth.
You write in your comment that “[...]My post was strictly about “giving advice to victims” and the pushback you’re giving invokes all these collateral issues I never argued in favor of.”
and in a later comment
“The parallels between bike theft and rape are obviously not going to perfectly match, nor should we expect them to. My point here was to start with something small (“giving advice to victims on how to reduce risk”) and then start extrapolating to see if we can reach a consensus on what precisely is bad about that.”
Reading your post again with this in mind, I notice that I am really confused by some issues.
Here they are:
Maybe I am misunderstanding this sentence, but if you ask someone ‘what went wrong’ to help alleviate further victimization—isn’t that gathering information on what advice to give, and not about giving advice? This might be a small thing, but it is something I noticed.
Maybe there is some statistics on this, with regard to bike theft too. I would imagine the things that have been mentioned in the comments already, like having an expensive bike/what lock(s) you used to where you parked it—would be something people would be prone to blame the victims for.
Still, isn’t there a clear distinction between the explicit goal of your OP and the text by Kathleen Stock? She is talking about giving advice to women (and her sons) that are ‘pre-victimized’, and you saying that the goal is to give advice to ‘post-victimized’ people.
She isn’t saying you should talk to victims like that, the title is “Telling women how to cut the risk of rape is anything but sexist.” not telling Victims.
So there seems to be a sort of conflating of the two in your text, and I would really prefer it if you made it extensively clear which one you are talking about, as they are extremely different issues. There is a difference between “any advice aimed at reducing the risk of sexual assault” and “any advice aimed at reducing the risk of a repeat of sexual assault.” Two different situations, best not get them conflated.
This goes back to the conflation. If you are talking about pre-victimization, I would say that it could be helpful information—but not a compassionate thing in itself. If we are talking about post-victimization, there are many issues you are dealing with, not to mention problematic physical/emotional issues—neither of which learning about the ‘implacable chain of consequences’ will help you with.
This hearkens back to the point from before: Is this text about talking to people ‘pre-’ victimhood, or ‘post-‘? Moreover, neither accepting nor following the advice saves you from being raped or having your bike stolen—You only reduce the chances. As is talked about in the text you quote, but as also mentioned by @liamk; Among other things, she points out that there is no evidence that preventionist programs work; and evidence that risk-reduction programs decrease the likelihood of female students being assaulted by as much as 50%. - There is no guarantee it won’t still happen. Which doesn’t defeat the purpose of prevention—but shouldn’t be conflated with ‘safety’.
That was all I was confused about when it came to your post.
Your post seems to align more with ‘Preventing’ victimization from happening, so wouldn’t it be better to build on that, as that seems more coherent with the source you use.
If we are to focus only on the goal you mentioned earlier, and answer that using your experiences,
“giving advice to victims on how to reduce risk”) and then start extrapolating to see if we can reach a consensus on what precisely is bad about that.” to me it breaks down the second when you go outside your in-group of similar-minded people. I wouldn’t like to get advice if I lost a bike, I would like empathic support, care, understanding and a friendly hug.
As such, I must admit that it is very hard to read a post like this, that even if indirectly, compares Bike Theft and Rape. If you are either a survivor or secondary survivor, the after effects of trauma goes from terrible to hellish. There are also secondary issues like pregnancy, transmission of diseases, PTSD symptoms and stigma, to name a few.
Caerulea-Lawrence
Sidenote:
Thanks to @Firinn and to @Said Achmiz for making this comment a reality. The former for their empathic listening, which was essential for me to regain my clarity and groundedness. The latter for their willingness to interact with me, and do what I would describe as “throwing wrenches into my mental faculty”, which irks me in such a way that it helps me with my fundamental rationality work. I would have not been able to write this without either of you. Thank you.
I don’t understand the difference. You can’t give someone advice if you have no idea what happened to them.
Regarding the distinction between pre & post-victimization, I agree the two circumstances are not identical but the advice for the two situations will have a significant amount of overlap. “Make sure to use a u-lock” is good advice for all cyclists in the city, including those who just had their bike stolen because an insufficient lock tends to be the most common failure point in my experience.
I agree that a different tact might be necessary for post-victimization, but I flatly don’t understand the aversion to advice. I mentioned a friend who locked up a very expensive bike with a dog collar chain, thinking it would be enough. Her bike was stolen within 5 minutes. She ended up buying the same bike again within a week, and it would’ve been absolutely cruel to not warn her that she should get something stronger than a dog collar chain.
Lastly, I fully agree that rape is far more traumatic than a bike theft! The purpose of analogies is to pare down the common elements to avoid confusing what motivates our positions on each respective issue. That’s precisely why I picked something relatively trivial like bike theft, it doesn’t stop anyone from adding distinguishing factors.