If people were forced to bet on their beliefs, I think most people would be forced to admit that they do understand this on some level; when you say “try buying this different bike lock” the expected outcome is that the victim is somewhat more likely to go shopping and buy that bike lock, whereas when you say “try wearing less revealing clothing” the expected outcome is that the victim feels crushed and traumatised and stops listening to you.
This analogy is inaccurate.
The analogue of “try wearing less revealing clothing”, in the bike situation, would be something like “try not having such an expensive bike”. (In both cases, the advice is “make it less appealing for the evildoers to do this crime to you, while reducing the utility/pleasure you get from your property”.)
Conversely, the analogue of “try buying this different bike lock”, in the sexual assault situation, would be something like “try buying this roofie detector gadget”. (In both cases, the advice is “make it more difficult for the evildoers to do this crime to you, by putting obstacles directly in the way of their crime attempts”.)
Once the analogy is rectified, we can see that the responses to each set of “advice” also becomes analogous:
“Try wearing less revealing clothing” seems like an insulting thing to say—but the same is true of “try not having such an expensive bike”.
“Try buying this different bike lock” seems like non-insulting, well-intentioned advice, aimed at harm reduction—but so does “try buying this roofie detector gadget”.
To put it another way, the person saying “try buying this different bike lock”, or “try buying this roofie detector gadget”, is trying to empower you. The person saying “try wearing less revealing clothing”, or “try not having such an expensive bike”, does not seem like they’re trying to empower you.
(Note that all of this is distinct from the question of which, if any, of these four pieces of advice will, if followed, actually reduce your relevant risk of victimization, and by how much.)
As far as the commentary on rationality being winning… indeed, you are quite correct that truly rational strategies must take into account human irrationality, as well as emotions, values, etc.
However, it seems quite implausible a priori that there should be no actions that one could possibly take to reduce one’s chance of victimization by sexual assault. But if that’s not the case—if there are indeed such actions—then your view amounts to the claim that it’s not possible to communicate any information about such actions to anyone who has once been victimized. In other words, it seems like you’re saying either that there’s literally nothing that anyone can do to reduce their chance of being raped, or that if someone’s been raped once, there is no way that information about such actions can ever be conveyed to them.
I think your analogy gestures at something useful but needs expansion. The ‘roofie detector gadget’ example could be reframed in a way which disempowers—eg, ‘it’s your fault for not using this gadget’, or ‘well you really ought to have used this gadget’, etc.
This suggests to me subject matter of the advice is less important than its underlying motive or attitude. I think advice will generally be disempowering if it presupposes the level of risk a person can acceptably run. Contrast the following: ‘well, you were wearing revealing clothes’ versus ‘you can wear whatever you like, but just note that you might be at a greater risk of being assaulted if you go to bar X.’ The latter lets the recipient make their own decision about risk. As a separate matter, whether we then have sympathy for a victim who runs a large risk depends on the justifications for running it: cf the freedom to go out at night and choose one’s own clothes versus building your own airplane out of scrap metal for fun.
Of course, even ‘empowering’ advice could still be upsetting to a victim if given as an immediate response. That’s not surprising. Advice in general—especially highly personal or intimate—often needs to be given delicately and sensitively for it to help someone. There is a reasonable position between ‘never being able to give advice’ and ‘not doing it immediately after the incident.’
In any case, I tend to agree Firinn here that there are important disanalogies between bike theft and rape which cannot be reduced to differences in the prevalence of false allegations. The latter is simply a more complicated crime both socially and legally—it is more serious (in psychological effect, social stigma, and legal penalty, with a few fringe cases excepted) and more closely implicates contentious political beliefs which cash out in different allocations of blame, responsibility, wrongfulness etc.
It seems sensible to remember that by giving advice you will engage in this complex social phenomena. But then, reading your comments, I don’t think you would deny this?
I think your analogy gestures at something useful but needs expansion. The ‘roofie detector gadget’ example could be reframed in a way which disempowers—eg, ‘it’s your fault for not using this gadget’, or ‘well you really ought to have used this gadget’, etc.
If you add blame to the advice, then of course you change the impact—because you’ve added something that wasn’t there before. “If you do X, Y will result” is simply not the same thing as “you are at fault for not doing X”. This isn’t a reframing, it’s simply a different claim.
This suggests to me subject matter of the advice is less important than its underlying motive or attitude.
The substance of advice is important if you’re trying to accomplish some goal (i.e., improve your outcomes somehow).
The motive for advice-giving is important for interpreting advice (i.e., determining whether it’s likely to actually be useful), but is screened off by the judgment of usefulness.
As for “attitude”, it may be “important” in the sense of affecting interpersonal relations, but as far as the utility of advice goes, attitude is irrelevant.
Contrast the following: ‘well, you *were *wearing revealing clothes’ versus ‘you can wear whatever you like, but just note that you might be at a greater risk of being assaulted if you go to bar X.’ The latter lets the recipient make their own decision about risk.
The recipient can make their own decision about risk no matter how someone else phrases advice to them. I’m afraid I don’t see what you’re getting at, here.
Of course, even ‘empowering’ advice could still be upsetting to a victim if given as an immediate response. That’s not surprising. Advice in general—especially highly personal or intimate—often needs to be given delicately and sensitively for it to help someone. There is a reasonable position between ‘never being able to give advice’ and ‘not doing it immediately after the incident.’
No doubt (especially if the incident in question is as traumatic as rape). But who here is suggesting that “immediately after the incident” is a good time for advice-giving of any sort? This seems like a red herring.
However, there does at some point come a time when advice is warranted. At some point, one must continue living one’s life. And then one must make various choices; and it is possible to choose well (and reduce one’s chances of repeated victimization), or to choose poorly (and maintain or even increase those chances). Advice, at this point, is appropriate.
In short, when we’re discussing “what advice is appropriate”, we are presupposing that we’ve chosen the timing properly. Having assumed this, the question of what advice we should give does still remain.
In any case, I tend to agree Firinn here that there are important disanalogies between bike theft and rape which cannot be reduced to differences in the prevalence of false allegations. The latter is simply a more complicated crime both socially and legally—it is more serious (in psychological effect, social stigma, and legal penalty, with a few fringe cases excepted) and more closely implicates contentious political beliefs which cash out in different allocations of blame, responsibility, wrongfulness etc.
It seems sensible to remember that by giving advice you will engage in this complex social phenomena. But then, reading your comments, I don’t think you would deny this?
I don’t deny it, mostly because there’s hardly anything here to deny… what is contained in these two paragraphs except platitudes and generalities?
in short, when we’re discussing “what advice is appropriate”, we are presupposing that we’ve chosen the timing properly. Having assumed this, the question of what advice we should give does still remain.
If you presuppose things like proper timing, and presumably other considerations about appropriate contextual cues, I don’t think there really remains any issue here.
I think generally the type of person who actually has valuable advice to offer in this context is also the type of person who’s socially aware enough to offer it via methods which are recieved well.
Well… maybe. Before making assumptions as broad and vague as “presumably other considerations about appropriate contextual cues” and “methods which are recieved well”, I’d want to see at least a sketch of what any of those things are supposed to be referring to.
The question, let’s recall, is whether the sort of advice described in the OP is appropriate, in the general case. Sure, we can assume the advice is given with reasonable attention to basic tact, with common sense about timing, etc., but it wouldn’t do to make assumptions which make the original question moot!
This analogy is inaccurate.
The analogue of “try wearing less revealing clothing”, in the bike situation, would be something like “try not having such an expensive bike”. (In both cases, the advice is “make it less appealing for the evildoers to do this crime to you, while reducing the utility/pleasure you get from your property”.)
Conversely, the analogue of “try buying this different bike lock”, in the sexual assault situation, would be something like “try buying this roofie detector gadget”. (In both cases, the advice is “make it more difficult for the evildoers to do this crime to you, by putting obstacles directly in the way of their crime attempts”.)
Once the analogy is rectified, we can see that the responses to each set of “advice” also becomes analogous:
“Try wearing less revealing clothing” seems like an insulting thing to say—but the same is true of “try not having such an expensive bike”.
“Try buying this different bike lock” seems like non-insulting, well-intentioned advice, aimed at harm reduction—but so does “try buying this roofie detector gadget”.
To put it another way, the person saying “try buying this different bike lock”, or “try buying this roofie detector gadget”, is trying to empower you. The person saying “try wearing less revealing clothing”, or “try not having such an expensive bike”, does not seem like they’re trying to empower you.
(Note that all of this is distinct from the question of which, if any, of these four pieces of advice will, if followed, actually reduce your relevant risk of victimization, and by how much.)
As far as the commentary on rationality being winning… indeed, you are quite correct that truly rational strategies must take into account human irrationality, as well as emotions, values, etc.
However, it seems quite implausible a priori that there should be no actions that one could possibly take to reduce one’s chance of victimization by sexual assault. But if that’s not the case—if there are indeed such actions—then your view amounts to the claim that it’s not possible to communicate any information about such actions to anyone who has once been victimized. In other words, it seems like you’re saying either that there’s literally nothing that anyone can do to reduce their chance of being raped, or that if someone’s been raped once, there is no way that information about such actions can ever be conveyed to them.
Neither of those things seem the least bit plausible; indeed, they run directly counter to common sense, as well as to actually existing advice which it is trivial to find online, including via organizations specifically devoted to such causes.
I think your analogy gestures at something useful but needs expansion. The ‘roofie detector gadget’ example could be reframed in a way which disempowers—eg, ‘it’s your fault for not using this gadget’, or ‘well you really ought to have used this gadget’, etc.
This suggests to me subject matter of the advice is less important than its underlying motive or attitude. I think advice will generally be disempowering if it presupposes the level of risk a person can acceptably run. Contrast the following: ‘well, you were wearing revealing clothes’ versus ‘you can wear whatever you like, but just note that you might be at a greater risk of being assaulted if you go to bar X.’ The latter lets the recipient make their own decision about risk. As a separate matter, whether we then have sympathy for a victim who runs a large risk depends on the justifications for running it: cf the freedom to go out at night and choose one’s own clothes versus building your own airplane out of scrap metal for fun.
Of course, even ‘empowering’ advice could still be upsetting to a victim if given as an immediate response. That’s not surprising. Advice in general—especially highly personal or intimate—often needs to be given delicately and sensitively for it to help someone. There is a reasonable position between ‘never being able to give advice’ and ‘not doing it immediately after the incident.’
In any case, I tend to agree Firinn here that there are important disanalogies between bike theft and rape which cannot be reduced to differences in the prevalence of false allegations. The latter is simply a more complicated crime both socially and legally—it is more serious (in psychological effect, social stigma, and legal penalty, with a few fringe cases excepted) and more closely implicates contentious political beliefs which cash out in different allocations of blame, responsibility, wrongfulness etc.
It seems sensible to remember that by giving advice you will engage in this complex social phenomena. But then, reading your comments, I don’t think you would deny this?
If you add blame to the advice, then of course you change the impact—because you’ve added something that wasn’t there before. “If you do X, Y will result” is simply not the same thing as “you are at fault for not doing X”. This isn’t a reframing, it’s simply a different claim.
The substance of advice is important if you’re trying to accomplish some goal (i.e., improve your outcomes somehow).
The motive for advice-giving is important for interpreting advice (i.e., determining whether it’s likely to actually be useful), but is screened off by the judgment of usefulness.
As for “attitude”, it may be “important” in the sense of affecting interpersonal relations, but as far as the utility of advice goes, attitude is irrelevant.
The recipient can make their own decision about risk no matter how someone else phrases advice to them. I’m afraid I don’t see what you’re getting at, here.
No doubt (especially if the incident in question is as traumatic as rape). But who here is suggesting that “immediately after the incident” is a good time for advice-giving of any sort? This seems like a red herring.
However, there does at some point come a time when advice is warranted. At some point, one must continue living one’s life. And then one must make various choices; and it is possible to choose well (and reduce one’s chances of repeated victimization), or to choose poorly (and maintain or even increase those chances). Advice, at this point, is appropriate.
In short, when we’re discussing “what advice is appropriate”, we are presupposing that we’ve chosen the timing properly. Having assumed this, the question of what advice we should give does still remain.
I don’t deny it, mostly because there’s hardly anything here to deny… what is contained in these two paragraphs except platitudes and generalities?
If you presuppose things like proper timing, and presumably other considerations about appropriate contextual cues, I don’t think there really remains any issue here.
I think generally the type of person who actually has valuable advice to offer in this context is also the type of person who’s socially aware enough to offer it via methods which are recieved well.
Well… maybe. Before making assumptions as broad and vague as “presumably other considerations about appropriate contextual cues” and “methods which are recieved well”, I’d want to see at least a sketch of what any of those things are supposed to be referring to.
The question, let’s recall, is whether the sort of advice described in the OP is appropriate, in the general case. Sure, we can assume the advice is given with reasonable attention to basic tact, with common sense about timing, etc., but it wouldn’t do to make assumptions which make the original question moot!