I have an autism diagnosis and multiple autistic friends. I poked around the literature on autism for a paper in grad school (although it was mostly on theory of mind). I have read books and blogs and aggregated therefrom a general model of autism that has yet to be dinged by any of this.
Also, “don’t do things to people that they find abhorrent for no goddamn reason” and “if someone never makes eye contact anyway their rocking is insignificant information about whether you have their attention, and rocking is only atypical, not fundamentally different from pen-twirling” and “one thing to try if giving someone an instruction doesn’t work is making sure they have it taskified; also don’t expect giving the people around you commands to work all the time” all seem pretty basic to me. And really ought to be status-quo, requiring citations to deviate therefrom. I would certainly require a citation if I had a kid and someone told me that they should be forced into contact with objects they don’t like, and aren’t to be allowed to move around as they please even if they aren’t hurting anyone, and that their not doing everything I say is a sign of a Serious Problem. The allistic equivalents would be unambiguous abuse, and plenty of autistic people are capable of telling others what the autistic-specific versions of those abuses are.
I’m not sure. Naively on priors, someone under stress is more likely to stim—and someone who’s paying attention to another thing is more likely to be under stress.
Following this advise strikes me as likely to result in the kid growing up with phobias and habits that will make it hard for him to fit into the adult world.
Seriously, you give this kind of advise to parents raising autistic children and then wonder why gatherings with a high proportion of autistic adults are full of people that come of as creepy.
I cannot abide the taste of mint or the feel of apricots. I don’t happen to rock, but I trace patterns on surfaces sometimes. I tell people to operationalize or rephrase or break-into-steps things they want me to do, if I need them to. Miraculously, I can function as an adult. It’s actually way easier than functioning as a child, since people don’t feel entitled to manipulate my environment or make demands on me as much as they used to.
This comment seems like it could be perceived as straw-manning. Backing up your statement with evidence that this is an accurate model of what people do with their autistic children would help.
This comment seems like it could be perceived as straw-manning. Backing up your statement with evidence that this is an accurate model of what people do with their autistic children would help.
It could be perceived as such. Given the context however it seems that Alicorn isn’t making an additional claim about what most people do and is instead adding labels to the behavior that Eugine did actively advocate (or criticise the deprecation of). Even if those things were never done by anyone the adovcation thereof could still be criticized. (And so any weakness in the argument is of a different kind to ‘straw man’.)
For better or worse there are the implied premises here that:
Doing things that are abhorrent to people for no goddam reason is torture.
Stopping people from moving around as they please without good reason is restraining.
Ignoring the principle “one thing to try if giving someone an instruction doesn’t work is making sure they have it taskified” results in incomprehensibly bossing people around.
The second two seem straightforward and while using the word ‘torture’ has its own problems the meaning is at least clear.
This comment does all of the things I was concerned about Alicorn’s not doing. The conversation I’d expect to ensue from her comment would be an argument over the definitions of “torture,” “incomprehensible bossing” &etc, which wouldn’t be explicit so much as the bashing together of “Doing these things to autistics is good” and “Doing these things to autistics is evil.” I have good reasons to expect this, because it’s what I’ve seen take place subsequent to such a remark a million times and with no positive outcome in any instance. (Add any amount, to taste, of “You’re not a real autistic so you can’t remark on the subjective experience of the Less High Functioning” and “People are actually being tortured and killed, so I shouldn’t have to be nice to you or explain these things out. Therefore I’ll just vaguely antagonize at you until you go away.”)
I’ll also point out that “doing things that are abhorrent to people for no goddamn reason” doesn’t pay attention to the fact that people who do e.g. ABA do believe that what they’re doing will improve the quality of life of whoever they’re doing it to.
Doing things that are abhorrent to people for reasons is still usually torture. (Sometimes it might be self-defense, or surgery, or something.) Stopping people from moving around for reasons is still usually restraining. (Sometimes that is self-defense, or protection of your privacy, or something.) The claim that these measures will help as you describe require support, but even if you could demonstrate strong reason, there would be reason to be suspicious of this kind of therapy!
If the kids involved were not autistic, and the torture/restraint were something corresponding to allistics, you would never get approval for human trials. (“I’m stabbing my son with this thumbtack repeatedly for ten to fifteen minutes every day. He has a really low pain tolerance, so this organization I found says that that will make it hard for him to function as an adult—I mean, he’ll still have to show up to work if he has something like a broken toe, right? - so they recommend this intervention.” “I don’t let my daughter out of her room. Ever. It’s okay, she has an ensuite bathroom. When she grows up she’ll probably have an office job, and she’ll just have to get used to not being able to run outside and play or get herself a snack or anything.”)
Watch out for sensory issues. If the kid reacts to, I dunno, styrofoam like it’s full of shards of broken glass and he can’t bear to touch it, keep him away from styrofoam
Central case of torture: thumb screws or the rack
Obviously within spitting distance of the central case: Forcing someone to press their hand down on broken glass
Still pretty obviously in the neighborhood: Forcing someone who reacts to styrofoam like it’s broken glass to touch styrofoam.
For someone who suffers from situation-dependent panic attacks, restraint and torture are not mutually exclusive. (Depending on how we define torture, of course.)
So is your claim that increasing that increasing the chances that the child will be able to fit into adult society doesn’t count as a good reason?
My claim? The grandparent doesn’t make any claims about autism or the optimal development strategy for those with particular symptoms. It describes claims already made and draws conclusions about whether “straw man” can apply.
Dude, people would totally do all these things if they thought a more normal seeming kid would be the end result. Many people would do these things in the full knowledge that they were “torturing, restraining, or incomprehensibly bossing” their children; justifying it as being for their own good.
How do I know this?
I have Asperger’s and I can see pretty clear ways my childhood could have been marginally to vastly less pleasnt that would have resulted in faster social functionality, and they would have been annoying as fuck to deal with. I’ve come to this realisation as result of the education/social skills subthread on the startup post. I would probably have had even worse social skills tha I actually did at 17 without being forced to spend time with people I mostly didn’t like, didn’t care about and didn’t have any common interest with. I’d be willing to do something similar with any of my children in a similar situation. Obviously I’d prefer better options.
As for restaining or incomprehensibly bossing, people do this with neurotypical children all the time. I fail to see why they’d behave any differently with autistic children. No torture though; pointless negative utility for all.
As for restaining or incomprehensibly bossing, people do this with neurotypical children all the time. I fail to see why they’d behave any differently with autistic children.
They may, for instance, learn that the meaning and effect of their ‘bossing’ behavior is different on the child in question and realise “Hey, me keeping up the incomprehensible bossing and restraining despite knowing the (significantly negative) consequences in this case would mean I’m a total asshat, I’m going to stop!” So, crudely speaking the reason you claim to fail to see is that not all people are one of ignorant, incompetent or malicious. I can only assume that you are intending to deny the premises (regarding the degree of negative effect those behaviors can have.)
I have an autism diagnosis and multiple autistic friends. I poked around the literature on autism for a paper in grad school (although it was mostly on theory of mind). I have read books and blogs and aggregated therefrom a general model of autism that has yet to be dinged by any of this.
Also, “don’t do things to people that they find abhorrent for no goddamn reason” and “if someone never makes eye contact anyway their rocking is insignificant information about whether you have their attention, and rocking is only atypical, not fundamentally different from pen-twirling” and “one thing to try if giving someone an instruction doesn’t work is making sure they have it taskified; also don’t expect giving the people around you commands to work all the time” all seem pretty basic to me. And really ought to be status-quo, requiring citations to deviate therefrom. I would certainly require a citation if I had a kid and someone told me that they should be forced into contact with objects they don’t like, and aren’t to be allowed to move around as they please even if they aren’t hurting anyone, and that their not doing everything I say is a sign of a Serious Problem. The allistic equivalents would be unambiguous abuse, and plenty of autistic people are capable of telling others what the autistic-specific versions of those abuses are.
Which way? Is the stimming more likely when you have their attention or when you don’t?
I’m not sure. Naively on priors, someone under stress is more likely to stim—and someone who’s paying attention to another thing is more likely to be under stress.
Following this advise strikes me as likely to result in the kid growing up with phobias and habits that will make it hard for him to fit into the adult world.
Seriously, you give this kind of advise to parents raising autistic children and then wonder why gatherings with a high proportion of autistic adults are full of people that come of as creepy.
I cannot abide the taste of mint or the feel of apricots. I don’t happen to rock, but I trace patterns on surfaces sometimes. I tell people to operationalize or rephrase or break-into-steps things they want me to do, if I need them to. Miraculously, I can function as an adult. It’s actually way easier than functioning as a child, since people don’t feel entitled to manipulate my environment or make demands on me as much as they used to.
So can I (I’m also autistic), but I know autistic people who aren’t that lucky.
Do you think torturing, restraining, or incomprehensibly bossing them as children would have helped?
Well, “incomprehensibly bossing” is how a lot of people see the creepiness thread.
This comment seems like it could be perceived as straw-manning. Backing up your statement with evidence that this is an accurate model of what people do with their autistic children would help.
It could be perceived as such. Given the context however it seems that Alicorn isn’t making an additional claim about what most people do and is instead adding labels to the behavior that Eugine did actively advocate (or criticise the deprecation of). Even if those things were never done by anyone the adovcation thereof could still be criticized. (And so any weakness in the argument is of a different kind to ‘straw man’.)
For better or worse there are the implied premises here that:
Doing things that are abhorrent to people for no goddam reason is torture.
Stopping people from moving around as they please without good reason is restraining.
Ignoring the principle “one thing to try if giving someone an instruction doesn’t work is making sure they have it taskified” results in incomprehensibly bossing people around.
The second two seem straightforward and while using the word ‘torture’ has its own problems the meaning is at least clear.
This comment does all of the things I was concerned about Alicorn’s not doing. The conversation I’d expect to ensue from her comment would be an argument over the definitions of “torture,” “incomprehensible bossing” &etc, which wouldn’t be explicit so much as the bashing together of “Doing these things to autistics is good” and “Doing these things to autistics is evil.” I have good reasons to expect this, because it’s what I’ve seen take place subsequent to such a remark a million times and with no positive outcome in any instance. (Add any amount, to taste, of “You’re not a real autistic so you can’t remark on the subjective experience of the Less High Functioning” and “People are actually being tortured and killed, so I shouldn’t have to be nice to you or explain these things out. Therefore I’ll just vaguely antagonize at you until you go away.”)
I’ll also point out that “doing things that are abhorrent to people for no goddamn reason” doesn’t pay attention to the fact that people who do e.g. ABA do believe that what they’re doing will improve the quality of life of whoever they’re doing it to.
So is your claim that increasing the chances that the child will be able to fit into adult society doesn’t count as a good reason?
Doing things that are abhorrent to people for reasons is still usually torture. (Sometimes it might be self-defense, or surgery, or something.) Stopping people from moving around for reasons is still usually restraining. (Sometimes that is self-defense, or protection of your privacy, or something.) The claim that these measures will help as you describe require support, but even if you could demonstrate strong reason, there would be reason to be suspicious of this kind of therapy!
If the kids involved were not autistic, and the torture/restraint were something corresponding to allistics, you would never get approval for human trials. (“I’m stabbing my son with this thumbtack repeatedly for ten to fifteen minutes every day. He has a really low pain tolerance, so this organization I found says that that will make it hard for him to function as an adult—I mean, he’ll still have to show up to work if he has something like a broken toe, right? - so they recommend this intervention.” “I don’t let my daughter out of her room. Ever. It’s okay, she has an ensuite bathroom. When she grows up she’ll probably have an office job, and she’ll just have to get used to not being able to run outside and play or get herself a snack or anything.”)
Didn’t we just have two threads about this fallacy?
Explain how this is a non-central case?
Central case of torture: thumb screws or the rack.
Alicon’s example: keeping the child from running around.
Central case of torture: thumb screws or the rack
Obviously within spitting distance of the central case: Forcing someone to press their hand down on broken glass
Still pretty obviously in the neighborhood: Forcing someone who reacts to styrofoam like it’s broken glass to touch styrofoam.
By “react” do you mean that it feels to them like broken glass would, or simply that he reacts that way?
I don’t think either of us is going to say anything the other finds interesting at this point.
You’re mixing up the cases.
Which case were you talking about?
“Keeping the child from running around” falls under restraint, not torture.
For someone who suffers from situation-dependent panic attacks, restraint and torture are not mutually exclusive. (Depending on how we define torture, of course.)
Sure. Could be both, but is closer to central case of restraint.
Certainly.
Ok, the central example of restraint is a straitjacket, so my complaint still stands.
My claim? The grandparent doesn’t make any claims about autism or the optimal development strategy for those with particular symptoms. It describes claims already made and draws conclusions about whether “straw man” can apply.
Dude, people would totally do all these things if they thought a more normal seeming kid would be the end result. Many people would do these things in the full knowledge that they were “torturing, restraining, or incomprehensibly bossing” their children; justifying it as being for their own good.
How do I know this?
I have Asperger’s and I can see pretty clear ways my childhood could have been marginally to vastly less pleasnt that would have resulted in faster social functionality, and they would have been annoying as fuck to deal with. I’ve come to this realisation as result of the education/social skills subthread on the startup post. I would probably have had even worse social skills tha I actually did at 17 without being forced to spend time with people I mostly didn’t like, didn’t care about and didn’t have any common interest with. I’d be willing to do something similar with any of my children in a similar situation. Obviously I’d prefer better options.
As for restaining or incomprehensibly bossing, people do this with neurotypical children all the time. I fail to see why they’d behave any differently with autistic children. No torture though; pointless negative utility for all.
They may, for instance, learn that the meaning and effect of their ‘bossing’ behavior is different on the child in question and realise “Hey, me keeping up the incomprehensible bossing and restraining despite knowing the (significantly negative) consequences in this case would mean I’m a total asshat, I’m going to stop!” So, crudely speaking the reason you claim to fail to see is that not all people are one of ignorant, incompetent or malicious. I can only assume that you are intending to deny the premises (regarding the degree of negative effect those behaviors can have.)
Did you read the whole thread? This is my summary of more specific behaviors.
I’d say it’s more guilt by association.
Today I learned that I should go re-read the Wikipedia page on fallacies.