There’s nothing self-contradictory about my criticism, there are multiple interrelated problems. American legal system is totally broken, it’s not just one easy fix away from sanity.
Fetishization of the concept of being “guilty” is one of these problems.
For example—everybody on less wrong is obviously either “guilty” of conspiracy to commit treason and replace various governments by Friendly AI, or at least “guilty” of helping people directly involved in such conspiracy. That’s a problem.
If someone rounded up whoever on lesswrong happens to be black, and prosecuted them, that’s would be a second problem.
It is self contradictory on its face . Compare these statements:
Literally 100% of people who ever lived have done multiple things which unfriendly legal system might treat as crimes, starting from simple ones like watching youtube videos uploaded without consent of their copyright owners, making mistakes on tax forms, reckless driving, defamation, hate speech, and going as far as the legal system wants to go.
US has extraordinarily high number of prisoners per capita. Looking at crime rates alone, it does not have extraordinarily high levels of serious crime per capita. There’s no way most people in prisons can be anything but innocent (or “guilty” of minor and irrelevant “crimes” pretty much everybody is “guilty” of and persecuted on legal system’s whims).
Unless you believe that young black men in US are the most criminal group in history of the world, most of them who are in prisons must be innocent by pure statistics.
The first statement provides a complete alternative explanation for the second two. It is entirely possible to believe that (A) there are far too many crimes, (B) police and prosecutors are biased against black people, and this fully explains why there are so many black people in prison without a single one of them needing to be innocent. Similarly, you say that, given crime rates and incarceration rates, some people must be innocent. Again, this is undermined by the fact that you say everyone is guilty of something. You just can’t argue that everyone is a criminal, and then argue that high incarceration rates must necessarily be attributable to a high rate of convicting innocent persons. They may both be true, but you have no basis to infer the latter given the former.
To the extent that you disclaim this by saying that people are “guilty” of minor “crimes,” your argument becomes largely circular, and is still not supported by evidence. What percentage of thieves/murderers/rapists/etc. are actually caught? How long are sentences? Combine a higher crime rate with a higher catch rate and longer sentences and you easily get a huge prison population without innocent people being convicted. I don’t claim to know if this is the case, but you do, so you need to back it up.
There are good reasons to believe few trials that happen are extremely far from any kind of fairness, and they’re stacked to give persecution an advantage. Just compare massive funding of police and prosecutors with puny funding of defense attorneys.
You completely confuse “did something for which an unfriendly legal system can find them guilty” and “did something seriously dangerous to others that could sensibly be a reason to lock someone one”.
These are not even remotely close. Essentially everyone is the former, very few people are the latter.
If your point is that there are a lot of people locked up for violating laws that are basically stupid, you’re absolutely right.
But that issue is largely irrelevant to the subject of the primary post, which is the accuracy of courts. If the government bans pot, the purpose of evidence law is to determine whether people are guilty of that crime with accuracy.
In other words, your criticism of the normative value of the American legal system is spot-on; we imprison far more people than we should and we have a lot of stupid statutes. But since this context is a discussion of the accuracy of evidentiary rules and court procedure, your criticism is off-topic.
Is it really off-topic to suggest that looking at the accuracy of the courts may amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic in a context where we’ve basically all agreed that
the courts are not terrible at making accurate determinations of whether a defendant broke a law
The set of laws where penalties can land you in prison are massively inefficient socially and in most people’s minds unjust (when we actually grapple with what the laws are, as opposed to how they are usually applied to people like us, for those of us who are white and not poor).
The system of who is tried versus who makes plea bargains versus who never gets tried is systematically discriminatory against those with little money or middle/upper class social connections, and provides few effective protections against known widespread racial bias on the part of police, prosecutors and judges.
How different is this in principle from TimS’s suggestion about lower hanging fruit within evidentiary procedure, just at a meta level? Or did you consider that off-topic as well?
known widespread racial bias on the part of police, prosecutors and judges.
Can you cite evidence for this?
Most of the evidence for this is based on arguing that P(conviction|African descent) > P(conviction|Eurasian descent) and dismissing anyone who points out that P(guilty|African descent) > P(guilty|Eurasian descent) as a racist.
Most of the evidence for this is based on arguing that P(conviction|African decent) > P(conviction|Eurasian decent)
That is Bayesian evidence that there is a racial bias in the conviction process.
Only if one doesn’t know anything about the base rate.
and dismissing anyone who points out that P(guilty|African decent) > P(guilty|Eurasian decent) as a racist.
(But that isn’t evidence!)
Why not?
Mind you those people are probably being racist. In particular they are ‘pointing out’ rather than, say, hypothesizing.
According to your profile you’re from Australia, so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the above statement is due to all your information about the US being filtered through a politically correct filter.
Only if one doesn’t know anything about the base rate.
No, unless you mean by ‘base rate’ something entirely different to the actual priors I would use when making the update the reverse is true. You need to be able to calculate some prior for the relevant base rate in order to make the update either way.
Why not?
Hey, I was agreeing with you! The reason I did so was that the quoted behavior is a social attack that contains more or less no information that is not orthogonal to the issue.
According to your profile you’re from Australia, so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the above statement is due to all your information about the US being filtered through a politically correct filter.
I’m going to suggest, instead, that you are so (justifiably) fed up with abusive usage of political correctness that you patterned matched my statement onto a far more general position which I would not dream of supporting. My actual semantics of my claim is rather mild. The limitation to a probability would itself be sufficient to make it correct but more important is the emphasis on how the potentially claim is presented. The likely neglect of corrections for socioeconomic status and how that impacts whether the difference is in what kinds of crimes are committed and how much those crimes are the sort that actually get convictions irrespective of guilt.
A relevant datapoint regarding the drug use—the most ridiculous element of America’s absurd legal system: the last relevant study I read (the abstract of) found that contrary to common belief white Americans actually use illegal drugs more than black people. Of course the manner and type of drug use is also on average drastically different.
(I also corrected the word ‘decent’ into ‘descent’. My original reading of the claim you actually described regarding decency made the claim even more racist and also confusing.
Now responding to the suggestion of political correctness based naivete I counter that I am actually far less politically correct than average except when the politically correct beliefs are coincidentally correct. With respect to the topic of race in particular I, like many Australians are far less inclined to hit the berserk button and start throwing around social signalling whenever the topic is mentioned. I hypothesize that this is because we never went and captured a whole bunch of African slaves then have a civil war about it! The ‘black vs white’ divide in Australia is in some ways more similar to the ‘white vs Native American’ divide that you have. That is, the race that the English settlers/conquerors mostly genocided when they arrived. This means that we have a different style of racism here and ‘African’ doesn’t warrant a special case when considering racism towards foreign immigrants.
A relevant datapoint regarding the drug use—the most ridiculous element of America’s absurd legal system: the last relevant study I read (the abstract of) found that contrary to common belief white Americans actually use illegal drugs more than black people.
You might be interested in this thread where Alicorn challenged me on that very claim. (Since I had to update on it, I’m obligated by the terms of my Bayesian novitiate to loudly point it out when someone reiterates my previous prior.)
In gist, white Americans are overrepresented in lifetime illegal drugs use, but black Americans are overrepresented in recent (e.g. last-month) illegal drugs use. This is relevant because you don’t get arrested today for having tried cocaine ten years ago. (In other words, if you’re white you’re more likely to have tried dope, but if you’re black, you’re more likely to have used it in the past month.)
However, proportional to recent illegal drugs use, black Americans are overrepresented in illegal drugs arrests.
That said, the statistics I was able to find did not distinguish arrests for drug possession vs. drug dealing; did not distinguish occasional from heavy users (so long as they’d used within the past month); and did not distinguish among different illegal drugs. They also didn’t control for economic class, which is probably significant in where people choose to obtain and use their illegal drugs, which in turn would have some effect on arrest rates.
They also didn’t control for economic class, which is probably significant in where people choose to obtain and use their illegal drugs, which in turn would have some effect on arrest rates.
They also wouldn’t have controlled for technological and strategic capability. ie. The knowing or being able to find out how to use an anonymous service like silkroad, use a conservative policy when receiving such goods and make use of substances in a way that minimises arrest potential. These days working the basics on thing likes this is easy. Spend several hours with google. Yet it remains the case that which subculture someone is in will drastically influence how much they will end up knowing and caring about minimising risk. (“Rah geeky rationalist skills!”)
Yet it remains the case that which subculture someone is in will drastically influence how much they will end up knowing and caring about minimising risk.
Or willingness to use said techniques. I am routinely contacted, due to my Silk Road page, by people wishing me to explain how to use Tor/Bitcoin/Silk Road (despite the entire page being just that sort of guide!) or to buy stuff on Silk Road for them (seriously? you think I might buy some LSD for a random stranger?). I’ve begun to understand why ESR could feel compelled to write how to ask questions the smart way.
Some (most) people really are just mindboggling bad at knowing when and how to just google something, consolidate the knowledge and practically implement it! Or perhaps we just overestimate our capabilities in this regard relative to the norm.
P(guilty|African decent) > P(guilty|Eurasian decent) alright, but that kind of evidence is easily screened out. For any non-trivial amount of forensic evidence E, P(guilty|E, African descent) ought to be approximately the same as P(guilty|E, Eurasian descent). (For example, if E points toward the defendant being guilty, even though you’d assign a higher prior probability of guilt for a black person than for a white person, you’d assign a higher prior probability of E for a black person than for a white person too, so that in the posterior probabilities those cancel out.)
Is there any evidence than American or any other legal system is significantly better than chance at what it does?
which I would interpret as ‘Is P(Conviction|Guilt) substantially larger than P(Conviction|Innocence)?’ Now, for some crimes such as copyright infringement, P(G) is very close to 1, so P(C|G) cannot be close to 1 simply because then there wouldn’t be enough room in prisons to hold NP(C|G)P(G) people (N being the population—times the mean sentence length, over the mean lifespan, and possibly some other factor of order unity I’m forgetting of), and since P(I) is small, in order for P(C|I) to be much less than P(C|G), P(C and I) = P(C|I)P(I) must be very small.
(Also, we want the system to be unbiased, i.e. P(C|G, brown skin) to be close to P(C|G, pink skin), P(C|G, penis) to be close to P(C|G, vagina), and so on, and so forth. The best way of achieving this would IMO be for all of these numbers to be close to 1, but that’s impossible with the current definition of G and finite capacity of prisons.)
which I would interpret as ‘Is P(Conviction|Guilt) substantially larger than P(Conviction|Innocence)?’ Now, for some crimes such as copyright infringement, P(G) is very close to 1, so P(C|G) cannot be close to 1 simply because then there wouldn’t be enough room in prisons to hold NP(C|G)P(G) people (N being the population—times the mean sentence length, over the mean lifespan, and possibly some other factor of order unity I’m forgetting of), and since P(I) is small, in order for P(C|I) to be much less than P(C|G), P(C and I) = P(C|I)P(I) must be very small.
It should be noted that the reasonable meaning of ‘substantially’ in such a case is relative not just the unadorned absolute difference in the ridiculously low probabilities. In comparisons of this nature a difference it is overwhelmingly obvious that “0.0001 − 0.000001” is much more significant than “0.6001 − 0.600001″.
The above consideration is even more important when the substitution of “is significantly better than chance” with “‘Is P(Conviction|Guilt) substantially larger than P(Conviction|Innocence)?’” is yours and not the original question.
It should be noted that the reasonable meaning of ‘substantially’ in such a case is relative not just the unadorned absolute difference in the ridiculously low probabilities. In comparisons of this nature a difference it is overwhelmingly obvious that “0.0001 − 0.000001” is much more significant than “0.6001 − 0.600001″.
I’m not sure of this: I’d very much prefer a world where 0.01% of guilty people and 0.0001 of innocent people are convicted to one where 60.01% and 60.001% are. (If convicting a guilty person has utility A and convicting an innocent person has utility -B, what you want to maximise is AP(C|G) - BP(C|I), which also depends on the magnitudes of the probabilities, not only on their ratio.)
The above consideration is even more important when the substitution of “is significantly better than chance” with “‘Is P(Conviction|Guilt) substantially larger than P(Conviction|Innocence)?’” is yours and not the original question.
Huh? How else could the original question be interpreted? [ETA: Well, if better is interpreted instrumentally rather than epistemically, “the legal system is significantly better than chance” means “AP(C|G) - BP(C|I) is significantly greater than AP(C) - BP(C)”; and since A is orders of magnitude less than B (unless we’re talking about serial killers or similarly serious stuff), that boils down to “P(C|I) is significantly less than P(C)”, where it’s the magnitude of the difference that matters, rather than the ratio.]
I’m not sure of this: I’d very much prefer a world where 0.01% of guilty people and 0.0001 of innocent people are convicted to one where 60.01% and 60.001% are.
So do I. This answers the question “do I consider false convictions worse than guilty parties who are not punished” but does not tell us much about the original question. The point of the original question was not “with trivial consideration of how much the conviction process is different to chance how high is the base rate of convictions for this crime?”
Huh? How else could the original question be interpreted?
That is a reasonable interpretation—the point is that we must also interpret ‘significance’ in light of the original meaning. That original meaning does not contain an overwhelming emphasis on the base rate of convictions!
The immediately obvious answer would be “over the prosecuted if you’re only ‘testing’ the courtroom itself, over all the people if you’re ‘testing’ the whole system”, but I’m not sure what the ‘ideal’ thing for a courtroom to do in terms of P(C|Prosecution, G) and P(C|P,I) if the police is ‘non-ideal’ so that P(P|G) is not close to or greater than P(P|I) to start with. Or even whether this question makes sense… I’ll have to think more clearly about this when I’m not this tired.
There’s nothing self-contradictory about my criticism, there are multiple interrelated problems. American legal system is totally broken, it’s not just one easy fix away from sanity.
Fetishization of the concept of being “guilty” is one of these problems.
For example—everybody on less wrong is obviously either “guilty” of conspiracy to commit treason and replace various governments by Friendly AI, or at least “guilty” of helping people directly involved in such conspiracy. That’s a problem.
If someone rounded up whoever on lesswrong happens to be black, and prosecuted them, that’s would be a second problem.
It is self contradictory on its face . Compare these statements:
The first statement provides a complete alternative explanation for the second two. It is entirely possible to believe that (A) there are far too many crimes, (B) police and prosecutors are biased against black people, and this fully explains why there are so many black people in prison without a single one of them needing to be innocent. Similarly, you say that, given crime rates and incarceration rates, some people must be innocent. Again, this is undermined by the fact that you say everyone is guilty of something. You just can’t argue that everyone is a criminal, and then argue that high incarceration rates must necessarily be attributable to a high rate of convicting innocent persons. They may both be true, but you have no basis to infer the latter given the former.
To the extent that you disclaim this by saying that people are “guilty” of minor “crimes,” your argument becomes largely circular, and is still not supported by evidence. What percentage of thieves/murderers/rapists/etc. are actually caught? How long are sentences? Combine a higher crime rate with a higher catch rate and longer sentences and you easily get a huge prison population without innocent people being convicted. I don’t claim to know if this is the case, but you do, so you need to back it up.
There are good reasons to believe few trials that happen are extremely far from any kind of fairness, and they’re stacked to give persecution an advantage. Just compare massive funding of police and prosecutors with puny funding of defense attorneys.
You completely confuse “did something for which an unfriendly legal system can find them guilty” and “did something seriously dangerous to others that could sensibly be a reason to lock someone one”.
These are not even remotely close. Essentially everyone is the former, very few people are the latter.
If your point is that there are a lot of people locked up for violating laws that are basically stupid, you’re absolutely right.
But that issue is largely irrelevant to the subject of the primary post, which is the accuracy of courts. If the government bans pot, the purpose of evidence law is to determine whether people are guilty of that crime with accuracy.
In other words, your criticism of the normative value of the American legal system is spot-on; we imprison far more people than we should and we have a lot of stupid statutes. But since this context is a discussion of the accuracy of evidentiary rules and court procedure, your criticism is off-topic.
Is it really off-topic to suggest that looking at the accuracy of the courts may amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic in a context where we’ve basically all agreed that
the courts are not terrible at making accurate determinations of whether a defendant broke a law
The set of laws where penalties can land you in prison are massively inefficient socially and in most people’s minds unjust (when we actually grapple with what the laws are, as opposed to how they are usually applied to people like us, for those of us who are white and not poor).
The system of who is tried versus who makes plea bargains versus who never gets tried is systematically discriminatory against those with little money or middle/upper class social connections, and provides few effective protections against known widespread racial bias on the part of police, prosecutors and judges.
How different is this in principle from TimS’s suggestion about lower hanging fruit within evidentiary procedure, just at a meta level? Or did you consider that off-topic as well?
Can you cite evidence for this?
Most of the evidence for this is based on arguing that P(conviction|African descent) > P(conviction|Eurasian descent) and dismissing anyone who points out that P(guilty|African descent) > P(guilty|Eurasian descent) as a racist.
(Or even do the homophone and ‘cite’?)
That is Bayesian evidence that there is a racial bias in the conviction process.
(But that isn’t evidence!)
Mind you those people are probably being racist. In particular they are ‘pointing out’ rather than, say, hypothesizing.
Thanks fixed.
Only if one doesn’t know anything about the base rate.
Why not?
According to your profile you’re from Australia, so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the above statement is due to all your information about the US being filtered through a politically correct filter.
No, unless you mean by ‘base rate’ something entirely different to the actual priors I would use when making the update the reverse is true. You need to be able to calculate some prior for the relevant base rate in order to make the update either way.
Hey, I was agreeing with you! The reason I did so was that the quoted behavior is a social attack that contains more or less no information that is not orthogonal to the issue.
I’m going to suggest, instead, that you are so (justifiably) fed up with abusive usage of political correctness that you patterned matched my statement onto a far more general position which I would not dream of supporting. My actual semantics of my claim is rather mild. The limitation to a probability would itself be sufficient to make it correct but more important is the emphasis on how the potentially claim is presented. The likely neglect of corrections for socioeconomic status and how that impacts whether the difference is in what kinds of crimes are committed and how much those crimes are the sort that actually get convictions irrespective of guilt.
A relevant datapoint regarding the drug use—the most ridiculous element of America’s absurd legal system: the last relevant study I read (the abstract of) found that contrary to common belief white Americans actually use illegal drugs more than black people. Of course the manner and type of drug use is also on average drastically different.
(I also corrected the word ‘decent’ into ‘descent’. My original reading of the claim you actually described regarding decency made the claim even more racist and also confusing.
Now responding to the suggestion of political correctness based naivete I counter that I am actually far less politically correct than average except when the politically correct beliefs are coincidentally correct. With respect to the topic of race in particular I, like many Australians are far less inclined to hit the berserk button and start throwing around social signalling whenever the topic is mentioned. I hypothesize that this is because we never went and captured a whole bunch of African slaves then have a civil war about it! The ‘black vs white’ divide in Australia is in some ways more similar to the ‘white vs Native American’ divide that you have. That is, the race that the English settlers/conquerors mostly genocided when they arrived. This means that we have a different style of racism here and ‘African’ doesn’t warrant a special case when considering racism towards foreign immigrants.
You might be interested in this thread where Alicorn challenged me on that very claim. (Since I had to update on it, I’m obligated by the terms of my Bayesian novitiate to loudly point it out when someone reiterates my previous prior.)
In gist, white Americans are overrepresented in lifetime illegal drugs use, but black Americans are overrepresented in recent (e.g. last-month) illegal drugs use. This is relevant because you don’t get arrested today for having tried cocaine ten years ago. (In other words, if you’re white you’re more likely to have tried dope, but if you’re black, you’re more likely to have used it in the past month.)
However, proportional to recent illegal drugs use, black Americans are overrepresented in illegal drugs arrests.
That said, the statistics I was able to find did not distinguish arrests for drug possession vs. drug dealing; did not distinguish occasional from heavy users (so long as they’d used within the past month); and did not distinguish among different illegal drugs. They also didn’t control for economic class, which is probably significant in where people choose to obtain and use their illegal drugs, which in turn would have some effect on arrest rates.
They also wouldn’t have controlled for technological and strategic capability. ie. The knowing or being able to find out how to use an anonymous service like silkroad, use a conservative policy when receiving such goods and make use of substances in a way that minimises arrest potential. These days working the basics on thing likes this is easy. Spend several hours with google. Yet it remains the case that which subculture someone is in will drastically influence how much they will end up knowing and caring about minimising risk. (“Rah geeky rationalist skills!”)
Or willingness to use said techniques. I am routinely contacted, due to my Silk Road page, by people wishing me to explain how to use Tor/Bitcoin/Silk Road (despite the entire page being just that sort of guide!) or to buy stuff on Silk Road for them (seriously? you think I might buy some LSD for a random stranger?). I’ve begun to understand why ESR could feel compelled to write how to ask questions the smart way.
Some (most) people really are just mindboggling bad at knowing when and how to just google something, consolidate the knowledge and practically implement it! Or perhaps we just overestimate our capabilities in this regard relative to the norm.
P(guilty|African decent) > P(guilty|Eurasian decent) alright, but that kind of evidence is easily screened out. For any non-trivial amount of forensic evidence E, P(guilty|E, African descent) ought to be approximately the same as P(guilty|E, Eurasian descent). (For example, if E points toward the defendant being guilty, even though you’d assign a higher prior probability of guilt for a black person than for a white person, you’d assign a higher prior probability of E for a black person than for a white person too, so that in the posterior probabilities those cancel out.)
Agreed, however, I fail to see what this has to do with my point.
Never mind. I had misunderstood your point.
The original question was:
which I would interpret as ‘Is P(Conviction|Guilt) substantially larger than P(Conviction|Innocence)?’ Now, for some crimes such as copyright infringement, P(G) is very close to 1, so P(C|G) cannot be close to 1 simply because then there wouldn’t be enough room in prisons to hold NP(C|G)P(G) people (N being the population—times the mean sentence length, over the mean lifespan, and possibly some other factor of order unity I’m forgetting of), and since P(I) is small, in order for P(C|I) to be much less than P(C|G), P(C and I) = P(C|I)P(I) must be very small.
(Also, we want the system to be unbiased, i.e. P(C|G, brown skin) to be close to P(C|G, pink skin), P(C|G, penis) to be close to P(C|G, vagina), and so on, and so forth. The best way of achieving this would IMO be for all of these numbers to be close to 1, but that’s impossible with the current definition of G and finite capacity of prisons.)
It should be noted that the reasonable meaning of ‘substantially’ in such a case is relative not just the unadorned absolute difference in the ridiculously low probabilities. In comparisons of this nature a difference it is overwhelmingly obvious that “0.0001 − 0.000001” is much more significant than “0.6001 − 0.600001″.
The above consideration is even more important when the substitution of “is significantly better than chance” with “‘Is P(Conviction|Guilt) substantially larger than P(Conviction|Innocence)?’” is yours and not the original question.
I’m not sure of this: I’d very much prefer a world where 0.01% of guilty people and 0.0001 of innocent people are convicted to one where 60.01% and 60.001% are. (If convicting a guilty person has utility A and convicting an innocent person has utility -B, what you want to maximise is AP(C|G) - BP(C|I), which also depends on the magnitudes of the probabilities, not only on their ratio.)
Huh? How else could the original question be interpreted? [ETA: Well, if better is interpreted instrumentally rather than epistemically, “the legal system is significantly better than chance” means “AP(C|G) - BP(C|I) is significantly greater than AP(C) - BP(C)”; and since A is orders of magnitude less than B (unless we’re talking about serial killers or similarly serious stuff), that boils down to “P(C|I) is significantly less than P(C)”, where it’s the magnitude of the difference that matters, rather than the ratio.]
So do I. This answers the question “do I consider false convictions worse than guilty parties who are not punished” but does not tell us much about the original question. The point of the original question was not “with trivial consideration of how much the conviction process is different to chance how high is the base rate of convictions for this crime?”
That is a reasonable interpretation—the point is that we must also interpret ‘significance’ in light of the original meaning. That original meaning does not contain an overwhelming emphasis on the base rate of convictions!
Are we restricting to cases that are prosecuted or doing this over all people?
The immediately obvious answer would be “over the prosecuted if you’re only ‘testing’ the courtroom itself, over all the people if you’re ‘testing’ the whole system”, but I’m not sure what the ‘ideal’ thing for a courtroom to do in terms of P(C|Prosecution, G) and P(C|P,I) if the police is ‘non-ideal’ so that P(P|G) is not close to or greater than P(P|I) to start with. Or even whether this question makes sense… I’ll have to think more clearly about this when I’m not this tired.