Depends. Who I marry will be the biggest determiner of success. If my future spouse is not only on board, but shares the vision for EER, then our combined incomes and shared expenses will actually make things go quicker. If my spouse is uncooperative, then all my effort may very well be for nil. Both ERE and MMM have spouses who not only supported their endeavor, but adopted it themselves. Not surprising, non-consumerist people tend not to group with consumers.
As for kids, there is also great variation. You will obviously need to save additional money to feed, clothe and care for your children. ERE is childless, but MMM and Mrs. MM decided to first retire then start a family. It worked out pretty good for them; they avoided expensive daycare costs, and their child grew up in a home where both the mother and father were active, full-time caretakers. MMM has several articles about having a child post-EER.
Though I don’t think their child is ill cared for, MMM is a little overly flippant about children and frugality, I think. He mentions for example that some people move to specific neighborhoods to get their children into better schools (rather than optimizing for cheapness of the neighborhood), and says something to the effect of “But it is better to just have parents teaching them and a diverse range of experiences, instead of some fancy school full of rich kids!” Which is far from obvious, because although having parents who are active in their life is great, a child’s peer group also has a huge influence on their development.
I’m not familiar with that MMM guy, but I’d just chime in with the observation that the kinds of parents with high agency and high planning abilities coupled with a willingness to break the usual societal norms probably wouldn’t be subject to research which dealt with a much broader spectrum and more average families.
IOW, someone who optimises his family and his family life so radically is unlikely to be subject to the same research results yielded by “You know it’s hard being a single mom, I tried my best, but he always wanted to go play with the other kids” type parents.
For example, high agency parents in a poor neighborhood may be more able to shuttle their children to activities in other neighborhoods, and to shield them from the resident school system via homeschooling.
I agree that it’s unlikely to have the best outcome, if only because getting the best outcome is hard.
It may be true that high agency parents are good for kids, and I think it’s pretty likely true that having high agency parents at home to spend time with is very good for kids.
But I don’t think it’s obvious that that’s better than having the kids go to a very high-quality school and being surrounded by smarter peers. I don’t have much evidence about which would be better. It bothers me that he states his conclusion as if it is obvious, when it isn’t and he doesn’t cite any evidence either way.
high agency parents in a poor neighborhood may be more able to shuttle their children to activities in other neighborhoods
For what it’s worth, MMM wouldn’t do this, since he thinks driving is basically for special occasions only. But I agree with the general idea that high-agency parents could make up the difference.
Depends. Who I marry will be the biggest determiner of success. If my future spouse is not only on board, but shares the vision for EER, then our combined incomes and shared expenses will actually make things go quicker. If my spouse is uncooperative, then all my effort may very well be for nil. Both ERE and MMM have spouses who not only supported their endeavor, but adopted it themselves. Not surprising, non-consumerist people tend not to group with consumers.
As for kids, there is also great variation. You will obviously need to save additional money to feed, clothe and care for your children. ERE is childless, but MMM and Mrs. MM decided to first retire then start a family. It worked out pretty good for them; they avoided expensive daycare costs, and their child grew up in a home where both the mother and father were active, full-time caretakers. MMM has several articles about having a child post-EER.
Though I don’t think their child is ill cared for, MMM is a little overly flippant about children and frugality, I think. He mentions for example that some people move to specific neighborhoods to get their children into better schools (rather than optimizing for cheapness of the neighborhood), and says something to the effect of “But it is better to just have parents teaching them and a diverse range of experiences, instead of some fancy school full of rich kids!” Which is far from obvious, because although having parents who are active in their life is great, a child’s peer group also has a huge influence on their development.
Citation needed, but I had thought that recent research indicated that peer group is much more important than parenting.
Efficient parents can choose the peer group, making it a de facto extension of their own influence.
Yes, but optimising for cheapness of neighbourhood (as MMM does) so you can spend a lot of time with your kids is unlikely to have the best outcome.
I’m not familiar with that MMM guy, but I’d just chime in with the observation that the kinds of parents with high agency and high planning abilities coupled with a willingness to break the usual societal norms probably wouldn’t be subject to research which dealt with a much broader spectrum and more average families.
IOW, someone who optimises his family and his family life so radically is unlikely to be subject to the same research results yielded by “You know it’s hard being a single mom, I tried my best, but he always wanted to go play with the other kids” type parents.
For example, high agency parents in a poor neighborhood may be more able to shuttle their children to activities in other neighborhoods, and to shield them from the resident school system via homeschooling.
I agree that it’s unlikely to have the best outcome, if only because getting the best outcome is hard.
It may be true that high agency parents are good for kids, and I think it’s pretty likely true that having high agency parents at home to spend time with is very good for kids.
But I don’t think it’s obvious that that’s better than having the kids go to a very high-quality school and being surrounded by smarter peers. I don’t have much evidence about which would be better. It bothers me that he states his conclusion as if it is obvious, when it isn’t and he doesn’t cite any evidence either way.
For what it’s worth, MMM wouldn’t do this, since he thinks driving is basically for special occasions only. But I agree with the general idea that high-agency parents could make up the difference.