I’m not sure that TD2 is a coherent category. If efficiency does not change, how can equilibrium price change?
Adding a social or signified value to an existing tool can affect the demand for that tool and other tools of its type, even though there is no new functional innovation. I guess technically you could call that increasing or decreasing its marketable efficiency, but I feel that it is important to acknowledge that this can happen completely divorced from any type of functional improvement.
TD3 could happen, but often won’t (absent a monopolistic situation) because the entity that could cause the change wouldn’t gain more from the change than society as a whole would lose.
I find this statement to contradict the reality of markets. Take the medical industry. There are constantly dozens of new pills, prescriptions, and other types of drugs vying for FDA approval so that they may begin mass production for sale. Lots of these products turn out to be harmful to individuals in one way or another, even ones that slip through approval. I would say to your point that there are very few examples of TD3 where the damage is immediately visible, on a large scale, and publically promoted. Situations like these are often shutdown fairly fast. However, there are tons of TD3s that are not quite as visible and have more long term effects.
For example, Right now there is a new energy product that is a pure caffeine spray attempting to prove that it is no more dangerous than coffee. In a flat comparison between the two they come out to be almost equivalent in terms of caffeine dosage. Because of this, the caffeine sprays will probably be approved, just like 5 hour energy drinks were. The effect on an individual is the same, but I would argue the relational effect is very different. Coffee is a slower more social stimulant. Whether it is where you buy it, where you make it, or who you drink it with, it fosters social relationships that I argue both moderate and benefit the user, curbing in some way the development of negative habits. Whereas the implementation of 5 hour energy drinks and caffeine sprays are faster and psychologically tied to paradigms of medical implementation rather than sociality. Burst sprays and quick gulps are common methods of medical implementation. Medical use, traditionally, is culturally private as opposed to social. I doubt there is any research on this at the moment, but I would imagine that because the later use faster, less social methods of implementation, they promote more negative side effects than coffee in its users (just a hypothesis).
As to monopolies, I honestly don’t think monopolies have anything to do with what I am talking about. I see the system of checks and balances placed on TD3s is inherently flawed due to the degree of individualism coveted by our society. The system assesses damage much like you assess profit, individually, rather than relationally. There are many things that are individually neutral or beneficial, which are relationally harmful.
More generally, I don’t know how to calculate “group profit” except as the sum of every person’s “individual profit.”
The problem with measuring group profit by individual profit is
1.) Defining what constitutes profit.
2.) The emergent qualities of systems.
By emergent qualities, what I mean is that often times the sum worth of the system cannot be defined by the parts. For example, human bodies can be segregated into individual organs, but to calculate the overall benefit of the body by net benefit to each organ is not realistic; just as if you were to further segregate the body into cells, it would be unrealistic to calculate the health of the body by the health of every individual cell. Some parts of the body, some cells, are designed to b degenerate quicker, some are designed to be more expendable. It is idealistic to remove the possibility that a species, let alone a primarily social species such as humans, would not function in a similar manner.
In my opinion, the historical atrocities of the 20th century have left western academics so disgusted with the perversions of hierarchy that the overwhelming desire to avoid past mistakes causes most of the system to shun this idea through connotations alone. In truth I am afraid by even voicing this idea I have severely stigmatized myself in this community. I hope that is not the case.
If you were to ask me how to generate group profit, I would suggest that what is needed is
1.) An algorithm that measures homeostasis between social harmony and dissonance.
2.) A Bayesian approach to determining a desired ratio between social dissonance and harmony.
P.S sorry for being so longwinded, couldn’t figure out a shorter way to say all that.
Your organ analogy is very illuminating. I agree that net benefits to particular organs is a funky way of trying to assess the benefit to the body as a whole (although it is probably possible). But note how you analogize individual people to organs of the body. Organs need other organs in a way that might not be true of human beings.
More generally, treating that kind of interdependence as inherent to human experience is almost totally inconsistent with micro-economic concepts like Adam Smith’s invisible hand. Concepts like profit and efficiency are heavily embedded in the individualistic model. In short, I think you should avoid using them to try to explain non-individualistic concepts. I would have understood your point much more easily if you had come out and said, “I don’t believe individualistic rational-actor analysis (aka economics) is maximizing what should be maximized.”
As an aside, I would be careful using the word “emergent” in this community. There is a historical usage of that word that was highly confused and misleading, and one of the foundation sequences attacks that precise type of confused thinking. In brief, saying “Human life arises out of the interactions of the organs via emergence” is no better than saying “Human life arises out of the interactions of the organs via magic”. I don’t think you are making that mistake when you use emergence, but the word is a trigger in this community. More on this general idea here, with some follow-up here. The whole first sequence is very interesting, if you have the time to invest.
Organs need other organs in a way that might not be true of human beings.
Peter L. Berger is a fairly famous sociologist who suggests that the human body is an organ within an organism constituted by a social network, a specific environment, and a specific culture. He argues: language acquisition is fundamental to being “human”; the initial development of a language comes from interaction with a specific environment, its further growth is dependent on a network of other actors; thus since language is dependent on networked bodies, places, things, and ideas he argues that the human organism is defined by this network rather than simply by the individual body.
I don’t believe in the individualistic rational-actor period. I agree that traditional economics is heavily embedded in the individualistic model, but there are plenty of branches of economics as field that reject this assumption.
As an aside, I would be careful using the word “emergent” in this community. There is a historical usage of that word that was highly confused and misleading, and one of the foundation sequences attacks that precise type of confused thinking.
Thanks for telling me. I must admit I have recently been a fan of emergentism as a theory within academics, but the critique you provide of it is interesting. I will be sure to read those articles.
Adding a social or signified value to an existing tool can affect the demand for that tool and other tools of its type, even though there is no new functional innovation. I guess technically you could call that increasing or decreasing its marketable efficiency, but I feel that it is important to acknowledge that this can happen completely divorced from any type of functional improvement.
I find this statement to contradict the reality of markets. Take the medical industry. There are constantly dozens of new pills, prescriptions, and other types of drugs vying for FDA approval so that they may begin mass production for sale. Lots of these products turn out to be harmful to individuals in one way or another, even ones that slip through approval. I would say to your point that there are very few examples of TD3 where the damage is immediately visible, on a large scale, and publically promoted. Situations like these are often shutdown fairly fast. However, there are tons of TD3s that are not quite as visible and have more long term effects. For example, Right now there is a new energy product that is a pure caffeine spray attempting to prove that it is no more dangerous than coffee. In a flat comparison between the two they come out to be almost equivalent in terms of caffeine dosage. Because of this, the caffeine sprays will probably be approved, just like 5 hour energy drinks were. The effect on an individual is the same, but I would argue the relational effect is very different. Coffee is a slower more social stimulant. Whether it is where you buy it, where you make it, or who you drink it with, it fosters social relationships that I argue both moderate and benefit the user, curbing in some way the development of negative habits. Whereas the implementation of 5 hour energy drinks and caffeine sprays are faster and psychologically tied to paradigms of medical implementation rather than sociality. Burst sprays and quick gulps are common methods of medical implementation. Medical use, traditionally, is culturally private as opposed to social. I doubt there is any research on this at the moment, but I would imagine that because the later use faster, less social methods of implementation, they promote more negative side effects than coffee in its users (just a hypothesis).
As to monopolies, I honestly don’t think monopolies have anything to do with what I am talking about. I see the system of checks and balances placed on TD3s is inherently flawed due to the degree of individualism coveted by our society. The system assesses damage much like you assess profit, individually, rather than relationally. There are many things that are individually neutral or beneficial, which are relationally harmful.
The problem with measuring group profit by individual profit is 1.) Defining what constitutes profit. 2.) The emergent qualities of systems.
By emergent qualities, what I mean is that often times the sum worth of the system cannot be defined by the parts. For example, human bodies can be segregated into individual organs, but to calculate the overall benefit of the body by net benefit to each organ is not realistic; just as if you were to further segregate the body into cells, it would be unrealistic to calculate the health of the body by the health of every individual cell. Some parts of the body, some cells, are designed to b degenerate quicker, some are designed to be more expendable. It is idealistic to remove the possibility that a species, let alone a primarily social species such as humans, would not function in a similar manner. In my opinion, the historical atrocities of the 20th century have left western academics so disgusted with the perversions of hierarchy that the overwhelming desire to avoid past mistakes causes most of the system to shun this idea through connotations alone. In truth I am afraid by even voicing this idea I have severely stigmatized myself in this community. I hope that is not the case.
If you were to ask me how to generate group profit, I would suggest that what is needed is
1.) An algorithm that measures homeostasis between social harmony and dissonance. 2.) A Bayesian approach to determining a desired ratio between social dissonance and harmony.
P.S sorry for being so longwinded, couldn’t figure out a shorter way to say all that.
Your organ analogy is very illuminating. I agree that net benefits to particular organs is a funky way of trying to assess the benefit to the body as a whole (although it is probably possible). But note how you analogize individual people to organs of the body. Organs need other organs in a way that might not be true of human beings.
More generally, treating that kind of interdependence as inherent to human experience is almost totally inconsistent with micro-economic concepts like Adam Smith’s invisible hand. Concepts like profit and efficiency are heavily embedded in the individualistic model. In short, I think you should avoid using them to try to explain non-individualistic concepts. I would have understood your point much more easily if you had come out and said, “I don’t believe individualistic rational-actor analysis (aka economics) is maximizing what should be maximized.”
As an aside, I would be careful using the word “emergent” in this community. There is a historical usage of that word that was highly confused and misleading, and one of the foundation sequences attacks that precise type of confused thinking. In brief, saying “Human life arises out of the interactions of the organs via emergence” is no better than saying “Human life arises out of the interactions of the organs via magic”. I don’t think you are making that mistake when you use emergence, but the word is a trigger in this community. More on this general idea here, with some follow-up here. The whole first sequence is very interesting, if you have the time to invest.
I don’t believe in the individualistic rational-actor period. I agree that traditional economics is heavily embedded in the individualistic model, but there are plenty of branches of economics as field that reject this assumption.
Thanks for telling me. I must admit I have recently been a fan of emergentism as a theory within academics, but the critique you provide of it is interesting. I will be sure to read those articles.