It might, conceivably, work for a species that pair-bonds but without any other significant social structure, but for a species that’s spent most of the past half-million years or more living in tightly-knit bands, the relevant selective forces are likely to be rather different, and even cultural differences should exert a significant force on the way these instincts are expressed.
I don’t understand this objection. Doesn’t a social structure increase the value of sexual reserve as a resource? Notice that it does so for both women and men (though more so for women), as wronged women can now get back at the people who wronged them more effectively.
Regardless, let’s look at the basic argument. There are two basic strategies suggested for Sally: the strategy of having sex with anyone she wants to while trying to maintain her sexual health, and the strategy of not having sex until she has extracted a public, permanent commitment from someone she wants to have sex with. (Those are extremes- some combination of them is also possible, like the ‘don’t have sex for 90 days’ plan, which seeks to demonstrate sexual reserve without requiring the permanent commitment.)
What factors should she take into account when determining what strategy to pursue? It very well may be that she cares more about having enjoyable sex than having a long-term relationship, but humans are also pretty bad at knowing what will make them happy. It is unsurprising that her parents are giving her advice that will maximize the chance of grandchildren whose father is invested in them, and their advice should be taken with a grain of salt if trying to maximize her happiness.
But the main thing I was trying to inject into the conversation is the knowledge that, whatever baggage she has (be it genetic or memetic), Bob probably has similar baggage, and she might want to plan for that. If she needs to work through some negative emotions, she shouldn’t be surprised if Bob also has emotional issues he needs to work through, and that some things are harder to work through than others (it may be easier to overcome guilt than to become more attracted to someone, for example).
For starters, in a tightly-knit community, everyone contributes to helping women through pregnancy, birth, raising the child, etc. Although parents may give preferential attention to their own children, this should still weaken the pressure on men to “fuck and run” (and, at the same time, the pressure for women to find a committed, monogamous partner). Furthermore, as NancyLebovitz has already pointed out, close social ties make it easier to enforce sexual selection for more attentive and nurturing partners, since you’ve got a reputation to maintain. Add in 500,000+ years of all kinds of complex and poorly-understood selective pressures from competition with other humans (believed to be by far the dominant pressures on the mind during that time) and you’ve got a situation that probably won’t boil down cleanly to a two-by-two game matrix.
The summary of Sex at Dawn that Nancy linked to below suggests that humans may actually be adapted away from strict monogamy. Wildly speculating here, but maybe the anxiety and disinterest men sometimes feel after their first time with a new partner is “meant” to remove them from the situation so the next guy can have a turn?
For starters, in a tightly-knit community, everyone contributes to helping women through pregnancy, birth, raising the child, etc. Although parents may give preferential attention to their own children, this should still weaken the pressure on men to “fuck and run” (and, at the same time, the pressure for women to find a committed, monogamous partner).
If everyone contributes, and there is minimal preferential attention to their own children, then why would anyone do something besides fuck and run? Long-standing relationships come from male parental investment, across species.
Furthermore, as NancyLebovitz has already pointed out, close social ties make it easier to enforce sexual selection for more attentive and nurturing partners, since you’ve got a reputation to maintain.
It only matters whether your sexual partner is attentive and nurturing towards your children. Whether or not they’re attentive and nurturing towards you only determines their value as friends.
The summary of Sex at Dawn that Nancy linked to below suggests that humans may actually be adapted away from strict monogamy.
Human sexual behavior resembles avian sexual behavior rather strongly. Both women and men have incentives to cheat, but for rather different reasons. Strict monogamy makes lower-status men better off at the cost of higher-status men and most women.
Wildly speculating here, but maybe the anxiety and disinterest men sometimes feel after their first time with a new partner is “meant” to remove them from the situation so the next guy can have a turn?
How does that impulse outcompete alternatives? If I feel a need to give the other guy a turn, and the other guy feels a need to monopolize his sexual partner, he will reproduce more than I will. Genes reproduce on the level of individuals, not societies.
Wildly speculating here, but maybe the anxiety and disinterest men sometimes feel after their first time with a new partner is “meant” to remove them from the situation so the next guy can have a turn?
Be very skeptical of explanations that rely on group selection. As explained in the posts linked to from that wiki page, humans love to engage in motivated reasoning to explain why the alien god is nice. Sorry, evolution isn’t.
I’m not referring to group selection. If you’re living in a close community, then once you’ve had your chance to conceive, there’s not a lot of benefit in fighting off other suitors, since you’ll be helping raise the child anyway; conversely, rivalry against other males is risky and socially divisive—which, since your band is probably rather small, can have serious consequences for you as an individual. This is not to say that all men will simply flee the scene once they’ve consummated their desire: for starters, we’re a hell of a long way from evolutionary equilibrium, and even then it’s not clear that the game in question has a dominant strategy, especially once you factor in complicating influences from women’s sexual selection of men and from various social pressures. More likely we’d see a diversity of different strategies.
I’m not referring to group selection. If you’re living in a close community, then once you’ve had your chance to conceive, there’s not a lot of benefit in fighting off other suitors,
If its valuable for the other suitors its valuable for you.
since you’ll be helping raise the child anyway;
Yes, but you want to be as certain as possible about which children are yours so you can favor them. And, yes, even in a close knit community there are many ways to do that short of causing the tribe to break down.
More likely we’d see a diversity of different strategies.
I don’t understand this objection. Doesn’t a social structure increase the value of sexual reserve as a resource? Notice that it does so for both women and men (though more so for women), as wronged women can now get back at the people who wronged them more effectively.
Regardless, let’s look at the basic argument. There are two basic strategies suggested for Sally: the strategy of having sex with anyone she wants to while trying to maintain her sexual health, and the strategy of not having sex until she has extracted a public, permanent commitment from someone she wants to have sex with. (Those are extremes- some combination of them is also possible, like the ‘don’t have sex for 90 days’ plan, which seeks to demonstrate sexual reserve without requiring the permanent commitment.)
What factors should she take into account when determining what strategy to pursue? It very well may be that she cares more about having enjoyable sex than having a long-term relationship, but humans are also pretty bad at knowing what will make them happy. It is unsurprising that her parents are giving her advice that will maximize the chance of grandchildren whose father is invested in them, and their advice should be taken with a grain of salt if trying to maximize her happiness.
But the main thing I was trying to inject into the conversation is the knowledge that, whatever baggage she has (be it genetic or memetic), Bob probably has similar baggage, and she might want to plan for that. If she needs to work through some negative emotions, she shouldn’t be surprised if Bob also has emotional issues he needs to work through, and that some things are harder to work through than others (it may be easier to overcome guilt than to become more attracted to someone, for example).
For starters, in a tightly-knit community, everyone contributes to helping women through pregnancy, birth, raising the child, etc. Although parents may give preferential attention to their own children, this should still weaken the pressure on men to “fuck and run” (and, at the same time, the pressure for women to find a committed, monogamous partner). Furthermore, as NancyLebovitz has already pointed out, close social ties make it easier to enforce sexual selection for more attentive and nurturing partners, since you’ve got a reputation to maintain. Add in 500,000+ years of all kinds of complex and poorly-understood selective pressures from competition with other humans (believed to be by far the dominant pressures on the mind during that time) and you’ve got a situation that probably won’t boil down cleanly to a two-by-two game matrix.
The summary of Sex at Dawn that Nancy linked to below suggests that humans may actually be adapted away from strict monogamy. Wildly speculating here, but maybe the anxiety and disinterest men sometimes feel after their first time with a new partner is “meant” to remove them from the situation so the next guy can have a turn?
(Edited to add scare quotes around “meant”.)
If everyone contributes, and there is minimal preferential attention to their own children, then why would anyone do something besides fuck and run? Long-standing relationships come from male parental investment, across species.
It only matters whether your sexual partner is attentive and nurturing towards your children. Whether or not they’re attentive and nurturing towards you only determines their value as friends.
Human sexual behavior resembles avian sexual behavior rather strongly. Both women and men have incentives to cheat, but for rather different reasons. Strict monogamy makes lower-status men better off at the cost of higher-status men and most women.
How does that impulse outcompete alternatives? If I feel a need to give the other guy a turn, and the other guy feels a need to monopolize his sexual partner, he will reproduce more than I will. Genes reproduce on the level of individuals, not societies.
Be very skeptical of explanations that rely on group selection. As explained in the posts linked to from that wiki page, humans love to engage in motivated reasoning to explain why the alien god is nice. Sorry, evolution isn’t.
I’m not referring to group selection. If you’re living in a close community, then once you’ve had your chance to conceive, there’s not a lot of benefit in fighting off other suitors, since you’ll be helping raise the child anyway; conversely, rivalry against other males is risky and socially divisive—which, since your band is probably rather small, can have serious consequences for you as an individual. This is not to say that all men will simply flee the scene once they’ve consummated their desire: for starters, we’re a hell of a long way from evolutionary equilibrium, and even then it’s not clear that the game in question has a dominant strategy, especially once you factor in complicating influences from women’s sexual selection of men and from various social pressures. More likely we’d see a diversity of different strategies.
If its valuable for the other suitors its valuable for you.
Yes, but you want to be as certain as possible about which children are yours so you can favor them. And, yes, even in a close knit community there are many ways to do that short of causing the tribe to break down.
Well, yes this is in fact what one observes.
Could it be worth Sally’s while to be in a social network so that she has some information about how Bob has behaved in previous relationships?
Of course- hence the increased value of sexual reserve for men I discussed in my first paragraph.