I know lots of people for whom church is a outcome-oriented community. The claim that there is no precondition for joining is specific to some churches- there are, in fact, many churches which make significant demands of their members, and expel members who do not meet those demands.
The contrast between “feelings” communities and “outcome” communities seems wrong to me. Consider a ‘safespace’- a community where people are allowed to say only things which do not make people of variety X feel unsafe. This is a community defined by exclusion- the tolerance is not finite, but possibly explicitly touted as being zero tolerance, and the group can frown upon, punish, or even expel those who violate the norms of the safespace. But to call a ‘safespace’ an outcome community instead of a feelings community seems ridiculous.
The important part (to define what kind of group something is) is what really happens inside the members’ heads, not what they pretend to do.
What? Important to who? Why do we have a feelings-oriented measure here instead of an outcome-oriented measure?
A group where everyone is super serious and really cares about the issue, but they’re working at it the wrong way, is less useful than a group where people are only in it for the signalling, but they know the right way to get stuff done easily, and so end up accomplishing more.
my first attempt at an apostasy
*sigh* I really, really hope that this usage of “apostasy” does not become standard in EA. An apostasy is something that obligates your community to shun or kill you. There’s a reason Bostrom’s post said “Remind yourself before you start that unless you later choose to do so, you will never have to show this text to anyone”
I know lots of people for whom church is a outcome-oriented community. The claim that there is no precondition for joining is specific to some churches- there are, in fact, many churches which make significant demands of their members, and expel members who do not meet those demands.
The contrast between “feelings” communities and “outcome” communities seems wrong to me. Consider a ‘safespace’- a community where people are allowed to say only things which do not make people of variety X feel unsafe. This is a community defined by exclusion- the tolerance is not finite, but possibly explicitly touted as being zero tolerance, and the group can frown upon, punish, or even expel those who violate the norms of the safespace. But to call a ‘safespace’ an outcome community instead of a feelings community seems ridiculous.
What? Important to who? Why do we have a feelings-oriented measure here instead of an outcome-oriented measure?
A group where everyone is super serious and really cares about the issue, but they’re working at it the wrong way, is less useful than a group where people are only in it for the signalling, but they know the right way to get stuff done easily, and so end up accomplishing more.
*sigh* I really, really hope that this usage of “apostasy” does not become standard in EA. An apostasy is something that obligates your community to shun or kill you. There’s a reason Bostrom’s post said “Remind yourself before you start that unless you later choose to do so, you will never have to show this text to anyone”