It’s amazing that the Vorturi haven’t had Alice killed already. She’s the most dangerous being alive. Apart from Bella, whose most dangerous ability is being able to use Alice effectively while also protecting Alice from magical attacks.
The only reason for them not to have tried to kill Alice is because they are are too scared they will fail and end up on her bad side.
Ahh, Chelsea. That, combined with political and military strength, the ability to brain-torture folk at will and Aro’s ability to detect anyone ‘faking it’ sounds like a solid recruitment system.
Yup, Bella needs to kill them all quick smart. Too dangerous to let them live.
Nah, Alice could beat her up. Alice is fun in a fight—she just dances around and you never land a hit.
I have been thinking about the relative capacities of Alice and Edward in combat situations.
In a direct matchup it would seem that Edward has the upper hand. Alice can see the outcomes of everything that either of them decide to do and Edward can read that information as part of what Alice is thinking. Essentially that puts them on equal footing with respects to mind powers and they are left with a fight that is as transparent as chess. That leaves Edward with an advantage based off mere physical traits. But IQ could tip that balance.
When it comes to fighting other combatants I speculate:
Edward retains his advantages when fighting hybrids and wolves. Alice should run away and not waste risk her extremely valuable life fighting without her main advantage. She has no experience (that she remembers) fighting without her foresight so her habits will just get her killed.
Alice retains her advantages when fighting shielded opponents. Edward loses the advantage he depends upon.
Alice will be far better at avoiding injury—she knows when not to fight!
When fighting large number of weaker opponents… I’m tempted to say Alice’s power is more useful. There isn’t much point Edward trying to read the minds of lots of rabble but Alice may be able to foresee a more general flow for the battle. ie. “What happens if I go to the right and beat on the 100 guys with the pitchforks vs going to the left and attacking the 5 with the burning torches?” But either way they may be better off not wasting their efforts on rabble. They could well both just get headaches trying to track through all the stupidity and indecision then end up dead.
I take it that you are referring to Bella’s newborn strength? As in:
Alice >>> Bella (foresight) newborn!Bella > Edward (newborn strength without newborn loss of control > slight speed bonus and a century of practice) Edward > normal!Bella (speed, strength and experience) Edward > Alice (faster and stronger and slightly more experienced)
I guess in a couple of years a cycle would require the introduction of a fourth, such as:
Alice > normal!Bella normal!Bella > Alec Alec > Edward Edward > Alice
Of course Edward is somewhat redundant. Alec seems like he should be able to beat just about everyone who isn’t Bella.
rationalist!Alec: “Hey, um… Boss… remember that time where my sister and I decimated the Romanians and allowed you to usurp their position as rulers of the vampire world? And you know how you maintain that power now because either Jane or I could singlehandedly destroy most covens? Well that chick is immune to both of us and yourself even while she is human. If you can recruit her you will get a new guard with a handy trick. If she turns you she could kill us all! A reward that would be a mere luxury and a risk that you cannot afford… do the math!”
Although it’s not demonstrated in the books, Edward can in theory get around Alec. Alec’s power works slowly and moves through space; by reading where it’s going to be, Edward could just get out of the way. Jane’s faster, so he can get gotten by her. Jane cannot, however, singlehandedly destroy a coven, because she’s limited to one target at a time and not especially powerful physically.
I take it that the same applies to Alice? I assume she gets her foresight at the same time that Edward gets his mind reading. That would leave her vulnerable to Jane but not (overwhelmingly) vulnerable to Alec.
How fast can Jane switch targets? Is it crucio Fred… then switch to crucio George and Fred gets up while George falls down in pain? Or does she need to recharge?
Either way crucio; molotov jumps out as her obvious default combat strategy (where prisoners are not desired). Vampire reflexes would (I assume) make flame based projectiles mostly ineffective against vampires that haven’t been incapacitated but stunning opens up the mundane ‘burn them’ option.
I’m not versed in typical vampire combat strategy. Do they make use of fire sources in melee? Flaming torches through to conventional flame throwers may not be useful if the wind from fast travel blows them out but things like oxyacetalyne cutting-torches may be hot enough to handle the pace of vampire combat. These may be best exploited by Wolves given their ability to handle the inevitable splash damage without going up in flames.
Vampires may be better off with incendiary ammunition. Even tracer rounds would at least sting a little. If Alec is as slow as you suggest it sounds like he would be outright irrelevant against any serious opponent. He would have posed a real threat if he could work instantly without travelling through space.
Jane seems to be able to switch targets as quickly as she can change who she’s looking at. She can attack many times in rapid succession with no apparent need for recharge.
Alice would have some ability to dodge Alec too. However, in a serious fight, where everybody’s in melee, Alec isn’t usually deployed—the fact that the power moves through ordinary space means he can hit allies just as easily if they’re in the way. He’s very useful if you don’t know he’s coming or if you’re still trying diplomacy while the Volturi have decided that you need to be dead.
Vampires are not shown to use fire in the heat of battle (pun intended). They use it only to destroy defeated opponents—you shred the bad guy, then gather up all his pieces into a pile and set it alight. My guess is that non-vampire objects simply do not move through the air fast enough or undetectably enough to hit one that’s still moving around. So when they fight, they get up close and personal, and they bite and crush and tear. I suppose you could kill vampires if you had a way to explode and ignite them and a large area around them all at once, so it could probably be done, but you’d need time to plant the dynamite.
My guess is that non-vampire objects simply do not move through the air fast enough or undetectably enough to hit one that’s still moving around.
Bullets? Normally they wouldn’t be much use but incendiary rounds with a sufficient firing rate should be effective in the space of time when the opponent is closing. Their closer proximity and forward progress makes it unlikely that they would be able to dodge. Especially against a team of 4 standing side by side. Recent developments in technology like that is something that is unlikely to have been fully investigated and probably has potential uses that have not been considered due to how useless guns used to be.
So when they fight, they get up close and personal, and they bite and crush and tear.
Not even melee weapons? For example, swords or even heavy gauntlets made of tungsten carbide? Anything to add weight to a strike. Relative to their strength vampires are incredibly light and the extra kinetic energy would make a huge difference.
Vampires literally limiting themselves to biting, crushing and tearing with only their bodies as weapons is better explained by a combination of narrative appeal, animal instincts and tradition than by considered evaluation of optimal tactics.
Incidentally, just how durable is a vampire? Obviously they are able to damage each other and wolves and werewolves seem to be able to kill them from time to time. Even Carlisle’s father apparently hunted them. Where do they fit in relative to, well, any material known to man?
It doesn’t seem that vampires are a great deal more flammable than, say, humans. I’m not sure if an incendiary round would catch.
i will, at any rate, not be including guns in the story even if it makes sense, because I really, really, really hate them and gosh darn it I am doing this because it’s fun.
Swords would probably break—really durable gauntlets have potential, although I’ve got enough other things to throw at Bella that she’s not going to have a chance to get down to weapons research for at least a while.
It’s not clear exactly how durable a vampire is. They are not endangered by car crashes even at very high speed. Edward claims in canon that he could kick out the wall of an out-of-control airplane and jump out without hurting himself, while carrying Bella, without getting her killed. Given the opportunity, one vampire can dismantle another without serious taxation of strength—there’s no vampire shown who definitely couldn’t take apart an incapacitated foe.
They are composed in such a way that sharpness matters—vampire teeth can pierce vampire skin in a bitey way rather than merely in a crushy way, and venom is the only thing that leaves a scar. (Thence Jasper’s.) Werewolves are supernaturally fast and strong and sharp and whatnot too, so it’s unclear how much we can extrapolate from their ability to contend with vampires. (It does seem like one vampire versus one Quileute-type werewolf will usually mean a win for a vampire except under special circumstances, like the vampire being distracted for a moment by nearby blood. Wolves come in packs, though, and fight together with far greater efficiency than a coven of vamps does.) We have almost no information on Children of the Moon.
i will, at any rate, not be including guns in the story even if it makes sense, because I really, really, really hate them and gosh darn it I am doing this because it’s fun.
That sounds like a good reason to me.
and venom is the only thing that leaves a scar. (Thence Jasper’s.)
Ahh, that was another question I had.
Edward claims in canon that he could kick out the wall of an out-of-control airplane and jump out without hurting himself, while carrying Bella, without getting her killed.
This sort of thing is why I like to assume that the ‘magic’ of vampire strength is not quite limited to what, say, super strong muscles would result in. A lightweight terminator couldn’t pull off a human saving plane jump from hundreds of meters up. It would be physics applied to the human body that is the limiting factor rather than rescuer. But ‘vampires can do that kind of thing’ seems a perfectly reasonable explanation. I’ll apply similar reasoning to vampire (and wolf) combat. All sorts of inconsistencies in the physics can be blurred over if they are just included as part of the “vampires + shapeshifters” counterfactual.
Nah, Alice could beat her up. Alice is fun in a fight—she just dances around and you never land a hit.
It’s amazing that the Vorturi haven’t had Alice killed already. She’s the most dangerous being alive. Apart from Bella, whose most dangerous ability is being able to use Alice effectively while also protecting Alice from magical attacks.
The only reason for them not to have tried to kill Alice is because they are are too scared they will fail and end up on her bad side.
No, they haven’t killed Alice because they desperately, desperately want to collect her.
Oh, I had the impression that they had given up on the ‘recruit pretty much the entire Cullen family’ efforts.
Zey have vays of making you join. This is part of the driving force of the plot in books 3 and 4, although it’s a little subtle.
Ahh, Chelsea. That, combined with political and military strength, the ability to brain-torture folk at will and Aro’s ability to detect anyone ‘faking it’ sounds like a solid recruitment system.
Yup, Bella needs to kill them all quick smart. Too dangerous to let them live.
I have been thinking about the relative capacities of Alice and Edward in combat situations.
In a direct matchup it would seem that Edward has the upper hand. Alice can see the outcomes of everything that either of them decide to do and Edward can read that information as part of what Alice is thinking. Essentially that puts them on equal footing with respects to mind powers and they are left with a fight that is as transparent as chess. That leaves Edward with an advantage based off mere physical traits. But IQ could tip that balance.
When it comes to fighting other combatants I speculate:
Edward retains his advantages when fighting hybrids and wolves. Alice should run away and not waste risk her extremely valuable life fighting without her main advantage. She has no experience (that she remembers) fighting without her foresight so her habits will just get her killed.
Alice retains her advantages when fighting shielded opponents. Edward loses the advantage he depends upon.
Alice will be far better at avoiding injury—she knows when not to fight!
When fighting large number of weaker opponents… I’m tempted to say Alice’s power is more useful. There isn’t much point Edward trying to read the minds of lots of rabble but Alice may be able to foresee a more general flow for the battle. ie. “What happens if I go to the right and beat on the 100 guys with the pitchforks vs going to the left and attacking the 5 with the burning torches?” But either way they may be better off not wasting their efforts on rabble. They could well both just get headaches trying to track through all the stupidity and indecision then end up dead.
Bella, Alice, and Edward form rock-paper-scissors.
I take it that you are referring to Bella’s newborn strength? As in:
Alice >>> Bella (foresight)
newborn!Bella > Edward (newborn strength without newborn loss of control > slight speed bonus and a century of practice)
Edward > normal!Bella (speed, strength and experience)
Edward > Alice (faster and stronger and slightly more experienced)
I guess in a couple of years a cycle would require the introduction of a fourth, such as:
Alice > normal!Bella
normal!Bella > Alec
Alec > Edward
Edward > Alice
Of course Edward is somewhat redundant. Alec seems like he should be able to beat just about everyone who isn’t Bella.
rationalist!Alec: “Hey, um… Boss… remember that time where my sister and I decimated the Romanians and allowed you to usurp their position as rulers of the vampire world? And you know how you maintain that power now because either Jane or I could singlehandedly destroy most covens? Well that chick is immune to both of us and yourself even while she is human. If you can recruit her you will get a new guard with a handy trick. If she turns you she could kill us all! A reward that would be a mere luxury and a risk that you cannot afford… do the math!”
Although it’s not demonstrated in the books, Edward can in theory get around Alec. Alec’s power works slowly and moves through space; by reading where it’s going to be, Edward could just get out of the way. Jane’s faster, so he can get gotten by her. Jane cannot, however, singlehandedly destroy a coven, because she’s limited to one target at a time and not especially powerful physically.
I take it that the same applies to Alice? I assume she gets her foresight at the same time that Edward gets his mind reading. That would leave her vulnerable to Jane but not (overwhelmingly) vulnerable to Alec.
How fast can Jane switch targets? Is it crucio Fred… then switch to crucio George and Fred gets up while George falls down in pain? Or does she need to recharge?
Either way crucio; molotov jumps out as her obvious default combat strategy (where prisoners are not desired). Vampire reflexes would (I assume) make flame based projectiles mostly ineffective against vampires that haven’t been incapacitated but stunning opens up the mundane ‘burn them’ option.
I’m not versed in typical vampire combat strategy. Do they make use of fire sources in melee? Flaming torches through to conventional flame throwers may not be useful if the wind from fast travel blows them out but things like oxyacetalyne cutting-torches may be hot enough to handle the pace of vampire combat. These may be best exploited by Wolves given their ability to handle the inevitable splash damage without going up in flames.
Vampires may be better off with incendiary ammunition. Even tracer rounds would at least sting a little. If Alec is as slow as you suggest it sounds like he would be outright irrelevant against any serious opponent. He would have posed a real threat if he could work instantly without travelling through space.
Being a vampire sounds like serious fun!
Jane seems to be able to switch targets as quickly as she can change who she’s looking at. She can attack many times in rapid succession with no apparent need for recharge.
Alice would have some ability to dodge Alec too. However, in a serious fight, where everybody’s in melee, Alec isn’t usually deployed—the fact that the power moves through ordinary space means he can hit allies just as easily if they’re in the way. He’s very useful if you don’t know he’s coming or if you’re still trying diplomacy while the Volturi have decided that you need to be dead.
Vampires are not shown to use fire in the heat of battle (pun intended). They use it only to destroy defeated opponents—you shred the bad guy, then gather up all his pieces into a pile and set it alight. My guess is that non-vampire objects simply do not move through the air fast enough or undetectably enough to hit one that’s still moving around. So when they fight, they get up close and personal, and they bite and crush and tear. I suppose you could kill vampires if you had a way to explode and ignite them and a large area around them all at once, so it could probably be done, but you’d need time to plant the dynamite.
Bullets? Normally they wouldn’t be much use but incendiary rounds with a sufficient firing rate should be effective in the space of time when the opponent is closing. Their closer proximity and forward progress makes it unlikely that they would be able to dodge. Especially against a team of 4 standing side by side. Recent developments in technology like that is something that is unlikely to have been fully investigated and probably has potential uses that have not been considered due to how useless guns used to be.
Not even melee weapons? For example, swords or even heavy gauntlets made of tungsten carbide? Anything to add weight to a strike. Relative to their strength vampires are incredibly light and the extra kinetic energy would make a huge difference.
Vampires literally limiting themselves to biting, crushing and tearing with only their bodies as weapons is better explained by a combination of narrative appeal, animal instincts and tradition than by considered evaluation of optimal tactics.
Incidentally, just how durable is a vampire? Obviously they are able to damage each other and wolves and werewolves seem to be able to kill them from time to time. Even Carlisle’s father apparently hunted them. Where do they fit in relative to, well, any material known to man?
It doesn’t seem that vampires are a great deal more flammable than, say, humans. I’m not sure if an incendiary round would catch.
i will, at any rate, not be including guns in the story even if it makes sense, because I really, really, really hate them and gosh darn it I am doing this because it’s fun.
Swords would probably break—really durable gauntlets have potential, although I’ve got enough other things to throw at Bella that she’s not going to have a chance to get down to weapons research for at least a while.
It’s not clear exactly how durable a vampire is. They are not endangered by car crashes even at very high speed. Edward claims in canon that he could kick out the wall of an out-of-control airplane and jump out without hurting himself, while carrying Bella, without getting her killed. Given the opportunity, one vampire can dismantle another without serious taxation of strength—there’s no vampire shown who definitely couldn’t take apart an incapacitated foe.
They are composed in such a way that sharpness matters—vampire teeth can pierce vampire skin in a bitey way rather than merely in a crushy way, and venom is the only thing that leaves a scar. (Thence Jasper’s.) Werewolves are supernaturally fast and strong and sharp and whatnot too, so it’s unclear how much we can extrapolate from their ability to contend with vampires. (It does seem like one vampire versus one Quileute-type werewolf will usually mean a win for a vampire except under special circumstances, like the vampire being distracted for a moment by nearby blood. Wolves come in packs, though, and fight together with far greater efficiency than a coven of vamps does.) We have almost no information on Children of the Moon.
That sounds like a good reason to me.
Ahh, that was another question I had.
This sort of thing is why I like to assume that the ‘magic’ of vampire strength is not quite limited to what, say, super strong muscles would result in. A lightweight terminator couldn’t pull off a human saving plane jump from hundreds of meters up. It would be physics applied to the human body that is the limiting factor rather than rescuer. But ‘vampires can do that kind of thing’ seems a perfectly reasonable explanation. I’ll apply similar reasoning to vampire (and wolf) combat. All sorts of inconsistencies in the physics can be blurred over if they are just included as part of the “vampires + shapeshifters” counterfactual.
What do I want? To take over the world.
What do I have? Alice. Oh, ok. Well that’s settled then.