I found out about poly pretty early and had a generally positive impression of it… in theory.
I do monogamous relationships, at least for the foreseeable future, because I’m pretty much a one-thing-at-a-time person. I don’t really multitask—it’s the same phenomenon. I want to focus on one person, and get more intensity out of the relationship.
The other thing is, I’m very private—I don’t like having to tell people about my comings and goings and certainly not my sex life. The whole part about checking in with your primary would rub me the wrong way.
Yes, for me too. I watched a documentary about the lifestyle, and was just baffled that people would shoulder the n^2 communication burden and associated drama.
But a poly friend of main maintains that for him it’s worth it. We agreed that the two of us have different thresholds for drama and relationship effort, hence a different result from the same cost-benefit analysis.
It didn’t occur to me to think of it that way given how important that −1 and /2 are for most practical purposes but that just means I wasn’t aiming high enough in with my hypothetical plans to require a harem of bisexual women (sorry guys...). More to the point I suspect I discount my expected exposure to other people’s drama by more than a linear factor. With larger polyamorous entanglements I’m more likely to be affected by factional politics. Given how they work I’d estimate a drama exposure of order n*log(n).
Now for the real practical consideration… what is the relationship between number of polyamorous partners and expected depletion of my Pramipexole supply… Yes, Pramipexole enhances libido for both sexes and in the case of males reduces or eliminates the refractory period). ;)
″ Yes, Pramipexole enhances libido for both sexes and in the case of males reduces or eliminates the refractory period.”
If these effects were reproducibly demonstrable, controlling for placebo effect, Boehringer (it’s maker) would be all over it with both feet, but they’re not. They are the company that recently wasted many millions trying to get flibanserin approved for enhancing female libido. The FDA voted 10-1 that it was no better than placebo, and that the side effects were unacceptable. Boehringer would not likely have gone to all that trouble if they already had a FDA-approved drug (pramipexole) that they could have submitted for approval of a new indication without repeating all the pre-clinical safety trials.
If these effects were reproducibly demonstrable, controlling for placebo effect, Boehringer (it’s maker) would be all over it with both feet, but they’re not.
You are mistaken. The maker tried to get FDA approval for this use but were unable to. I do not consider this particularly strong evidence that the effect is not present. Faith in the FDA as an efficient arbiter of truth is not a misconception that I suffer from.
They are the company that recently wasted many millions trying to get flibanserin approved for enhancing female libido. The FDA voted 10-1 that it was no better than placebo, and that the side effects were unacceptable.
I have very little evidence regarding whether that drug is effective. And yes, I am saying this after being informed of the FDA vote. I only consider a 10:1 vote against to be weak evidence in favor of the effectiveness of a drug for this particular application.
Boehringer would not likely have gone to all that trouble if they already had a FDA-approved drug (pramipexole) that they could have submitted for approval of a new indication without repeating all the pre-clinical safety trials.
They did.
You may find it interesting to note that under the side effects of pramipexole the maker is required to list hypersexuality due to multiple studies showing increased sexual urges and ‘hedonistic behavior’.
Another interesting side effect of a medication, and one which can definitely not be relied upon, is inorgasmia. While SSRIs will almost always delay ejaculation (sometimes a good thing), in some cases they more or less prevent it entirely. This makes it possible to copulate until physical exhaustion:
TMI: Juvyr vg vfa’g zl hfhny rkcrevrapr gurer jnf bar jrrx va juvpu zl frkhny shapgvba erznvarq fgngvp ng n cbvag whfg orsber pbzcyrgvba. Guvf jnf fbzrguvat bs n abirygl fb n cnegare naq V qrpvqrq gb grfg gur yvzvgf bs bhe raqhenapr. Bhe erpbeq jnf 5 ubhef. V nz engure wrnybhf gung V qvq abg trg zl funer bs gur betnfzf!
General fact: Summing a polynomial of degree k results in a polynomial of degree k+1. This is easier to see if you use the x choose k basis, rather than the x^k basis.
This is even easier to see if you remember that summation is discrete integration, which is the opposite of differentiation, which reduces degree by one. I recommend Graham, Knuth and Patashnik’s “Concrete Mathematics” for stuff like this.
Have you found pramipexole effective in reducing your refractory period? I hadn’t realized there were drugs that could do that. I’m interested in trying: how much does it reduce your refractory period? What have your experiences been with it? It looks like there might be a lot of unpleasant side effects.
That is a seriously funny side effect. I presume it is just related to the boost in appeal of hedonistic activities and general drive towards anything. But still… cross dressing pills. :P
I would be extremely hesitant to recommend taking pramipexole just for the sexual side effects. It works as a powerful dopaminergic receptor agonist. You don’t play recklessly with your dopamine system, it’s not a toy… that’s the acetylecholine system! ;) (Within reason!)
I have used pramipexole but I did so not (just) for the sexual effects but because the overall profile fit well with my needs at the time. I stopped using it because I found it made me work too hard, which has limits. It is also just like to cycle most substances that have stimulatory effects.
Have you found pramipexole effective in reducing your refractory period? I hadn’t realized there were drugs that could do that.
how much does it reduce your refractory period?
If I recall it was down to 5 minutes. It was absolutely ridiculous, especially when combined with cialis. I cannot speak for general applicability, studies have focussed on libido but I haven’t seen anything except anecdotal evidence regarding refractory period affects.
I’m interested in trying
Be careful and do your research.
What have your experiences been with it?
Positive, but No Free Lunch. I recommend researching other people’s experiences, with the Mind and Muscle and Immortality Institute forums being good places to start. The best thing about those forums is that they are absolutely riddled with citations from PubMed. That saves time tracking the solid evidence down!
It looks like there might be a lot of unpleasant side effects.
Not as bad as with SSRIs but that says little. Want something that gives a mild libido boost but is also neuroprotective and an enhance motivation? Try selegiline. It is much less intrusive.
I was always leery of it, even if you do your research.
To be clear my research involves consulting with professionals that I select for competence as well as qualification. This is too important to merely go with the flow.
The whole part about checking in with your primary would rub me the wrong way.
I don’t think all polyamorous relationships require such checking in, especially if you’re uncomfortable with it. But I understand your point about multitasking.
I found out about poly pretty early and had a generally positive impression of it… in theory.
I do monogamous relationships, at least for the foreseeable future, because I’m pretty much a one-thing-at-a-time person. I don’t really multitask—it’s the same phenomenon. I want to focus on one person, and get more intensity out of the relationship.
The other thing is, I’m very private—I don’t like having to tell people about my comings and goings and certainly not my sex life. The whole part about checking in with your primary would rub me the wrong way.
Yes, for me too. I watched a documentary about the lifestyle, and was just baffled that people would shoulder the n^2 communication burden and associated drama.
But a poly friend of main maintains that for him it’s worth it. We agreed that the two of us have different thresholds for drama and relationship effort, hence a different result from the same cost-benefit analysis.
n^2?
1
2+1=3
3+2+1=6
4+3+2+1=10
5+4+3+2+1=15
6+5+4+3+2+1=21
7+6+5+4+3+2+1=28
Let’s see… (n-1)n/2. Yes, n^2 it is.
It didn’t occur to me to think of it that way given how important that −1 and /2 are for most practical purposes but that just means I wasn’t aiming high enough in with my hypothetical plans to require a harem of bisexual women (sorry guys...). More to the point I suspect I discount my expected exposure to other people’s drama by more than a linear factor. With larger polyamorous entanglements I’m more likely to be affected by factional politics. Given how they work I’d estimate a drama exposure of order n*log(n).
Now for the real practical consideration… what is the relationship between number of polyamorous partners and expected depletion of my Pramipexole supply… Yes, Pramipexole enhances libido for both sexes and in the case of males reduces or eliminates the refractory period). ;)
″ Yes, Pramipexole enhances libido for both sexes and in the case of males reduces or eliminates the refractory period.”
If these effects were reproducibly demonstrable, controlling for placebo effect, Boehringer (it’s maker) would be all over it with both feet, but they’re not. They are the company that recently wasted many millions trying to get flibanserin approved for enhancing female libido. The FDA voted 10-1 that it was no better than placebo, and that the side effects were unacceptable. Boehringer would not likely have gone to all that trouble if they already had a FDA-approved drug (pramipexole) that they could have submitted for approval of a new indication without repeating all the pre-clinical safety trials.
You are mistaken. The maker tried to get FDA approval for this use but were unable to. I do not consider this particularly strong evidence that the effect is not present. Faith in the FDA as an efficient arbiter of truth is not a misconception that I suffer from.
I have very little evidence regarding whether that drug is effective. And yes, I am saying this after being informed of the FDA vote. I only consider a 10:1 vote against to be weak evidence in favor of the effectiveness of a drug for this particular application.
They did.
You may find it interesting to note that under the side effects of pramipexole the maker is required to list hypersexuality due to multiple studies showing increased sexual urges and ‘hedonistic behavior’.
If it causes increased sexual urges in 1 in 100 people, it’ll show up in studies but be useless to most people trying to increase their sexual urges.
Completely true.
Another interesting side effect of a medication, and one which can definitely not be relied upon, is inorgasmia. While SSRIs will almost always delay ejaculation (sometimes a good thing), in some cases they more or less prevent it entirely. This makes it possible to copulate until physical exhaustion:
TMI: Juvyr vg vfa’g zl hfhny rkcrevrapr gurer jnf bar jrrx va juvpu zl frkhny shapgvba erznvarq fgngvp ng n cbvag whfg orsber pbzcyrgvba. Guvf jnf fbzrguvat bs n abirygl fb n cnegare naq V qrpvqrq gb grfg gur yvzvgf bs bhe raqhenapr. Bhe erpbeq jnf 5 ubhef. V nz engure wrnybhf gung V qvq abg trg zl funer bs gur betnfzf!
Pharmacology is fun. :)
Fb lbh jrer arne betnfz sbe 5 ubhef? Gung’f nznmvat. Gung zhfg unir orra terng. Vg’f cbffvoyr gb fvzhyngr gung rssrpg ol punatvat fcrrqf naq fybjvat qbja qhevat frk ohg V’ir arire uryq bhg gung ybat. V’ir unq nabetnfzvp rssrpgf sebz FFEVf naq prageny areibhf flfgrz qrcerffnagf (Ivpbqva, nypbuby, nagvuvfgnzvarf, cbg) ohg vg’f nyjnlf orra bs gur glcr jurer V unir nyzbfg ab frafngvba, naq vg’f nyjnlf orra harawblnoyr naq sehfgengvat.
Arne betnfz. Ohg vg qvq inel. Vg jnf nf gubhtu vg xvaq bs nccebnpurq betnfz ohg gura qvrq onpx gb, lbh xabj, ‘qrsnhyg frk fgngr’, gura ohvyg hc… rgp.
Nf ybat nf lbh qba’g zvaq oyrrqvat sebz sevpgvba oheaf naq raqhevat rkgerzr zhfpyr sngvthr. Vg jnfa’g dhvgr nf rkunhfgvat nf jura V’ir eha znengubaf ohg vg jnf cerggl qnza pybfr. V guvax gur punyyratr jnf cebonoyl zber sha guna gur snpg gung vg jnf frk. Ohg V’z penml yvxr gung. :C
Lrnu, V pregnvayl pna’g ynfg 5 ubhef gung jnl. V oryvrir fbzr znyrf ner noyr gb genva gurzfryirf gb betnfz jvgubhg rwnphyngvat naq gurerol pbagvahr (naq betnfz ntnva) qhevat frk. Gurer vf fbzr qbhog gung rirelbar vf pncnoyr bs qbvat guvf rira haqre genvavat.
Um… that body part is not supposed to stay in that state for 5 hours. Maintaining an erection means diminished bloodflow to the area and anything over 4 hours calls for a trip to the emergency room.
General fact: Summing a polynomial of degree k results in a polynomial of degree k+1. This is easier to see if you use the x choose k basis, rather than the x^k basis.
This is even easier to see if you remember that summation is discrete integration, which is the opposite of differentiation, which reduces degree by one. I recommend Graham, Knuth and Patashnik’s “Concrete Mathematics” for stuff like this.
Have you found pramipexole effective in reducing your refractory period? I hadn’t realized there were drugs that could do that. I’m interested in trying: how much does it reduce your refractory period? What have your experiences been with it? It looks like there might be a lot of unpleasant side effects.
plus cross-dressing.
That is a seriously funny side effect. I presume it is just related to the boost in appeal of hedonistic activities and general drive towards anything. But still… cross dressing pills. :P
I would be extremely hesitant to recommend taking pramipexole just for the sexual side effects. It works as a powerful dopaminergic receptor agonist. You don’t play recklessly with your dopamine system, it’s not a toy… that’s the acetylecholine system! ;) (Within reason!)
I have used pramipexole but I did so not (just) for the sexual effects but because the overall profile fit well with my needs at the time. I stopped using it because I found it made me work too hard, which has limits. It is also just like to cycle most substances that have stimulatory effects.
If I recall it was down to 5 minutes. It was absolutely ridiculous, especially when combined with cialis. I cannot speak for general applicability, studies have focussed on libido but I haven’t seen anything except anecdotal evidence regarding refractory period affects.
Be careful and do your research.
Positive, but No Free Lunch. I recommend researching other people’s experiences, with the Mind and Muscle and Immortality Institute forums being good places to start. The best thing about those forums is that they are absolutely riddled with citations from PubMed. That saves time tracking the solid evidence down!
Not as bad as with SSRIs but that says little. Want something that gives a mild libido boost but is also neuroprotective and an enhance motivation? Try selegiline. It is much less intrusive.
do you generally do DIY medicine? I was always leery of it, even if you do your research.
Absolutely.
To be clear my research involves consulting with professionals that I select for competence as well as qualification. This is too important to merely go with the flow.
Pramipexole? Wow, you’re serious. Do you just take it quietly, or do you offer it to the girls too? In the latter case they should share the cost :-)
I don’t think all polyamorous relationships require such checking in, especially if you’re uncomfortable with it. But I understand your point about multitasking.
Same here: I am theoretically interested in polyamory, but I am rather monotropic.