It would take some time for the value this creates to run out though, much like Robin Hanson finds a future with a dream time of utopia followed by trillions of slaves glorious , I still find a few subjective millennia of a golden age followed by non-human and inhuman minds to be worth it.
I’d add that total wireheading probably still feels nicer to us than Hanson’s scenario. Our CEV might disagree, but damn, I’d say that they are in different classes of badness: “somewhat bitter yet predictable outcome of a horrible mess” versus “boot stamping on a human face forever”.
What people consistently are not getting (going as far to call the Malthusian ems scenario a “hell world”) is that any minds that will exist in it will be well adapted to it.
So the question is really whether “boot stamping on a human face forever” is more or less worthy of being called a ‘hell world’ than “humanity is destroyed, replaced by trillions of alien slaves”.
I don’t consider it any worse than humanity being destroyed and replaced by nothing. Indeed I consider it marginally better in the same way I would consider it marginally better for mankind to go extinct without destroying the Earth’s ecosystem than all life on Earth being extinguished. Also in the em scenario we get a least a few if not all humans living through finite (perhaps a few centuries, perhaps a few millennia or even a million years, it is hard to tell) era of plenty.
Yup, and medieval peasants were well adapted to their world.
If you think medieval peasants would agree they where better off never existing at all you are probably mistaken. I would argue that if medieval peasant’s lives aren’t worth living, the odds are very poor that our own current lives are worth living.
You aren’t getting it. Well adapted as in alien, inhuman. Why would anything like a human mind be economical? And during the transition to inhuman minds we still get lots and lots and lots of utility from human-like minds living lives worth living.
I don’t know wire-heading just doesn’t feel nicer to me than a few millennia of fun followed by alien creatures inhabiting the universe. And if one is at all altruistic, the opinions of the alien creatures surely count for something.
Again, notice the “us”. Of course I didn’t mean that the hypothetical Malthusian ems would experience emotions such as misery or describe their existence as not worth it.
I was simply implying that, say, you or me might survive that long and… see things we think we should sympathize with but can’t.
I was simply implying that, say, you or me might survive that long and… see things we think we should sympathize with but can’t.
You are right on that. I guess I’m not too bothered by that because I don’t expect to survive that long. Feeling glad or not bothered by someone getting to live a life he finds worthy but one I don’t appreciate is a much easier gesture in far mode. Actually living to see the em world would mean near mode would get a say too… and it may not be very pleased by what it sees.
It is easy to put up a sign “altruism” and declare you are more than pleased by minds existing and having fulfilling existences. It is much harder to live next door to a necrophiliac.
I’d add that total wireheading probably still feels nicer to us than Hanson’s scenario. Our CEV might disagree, but damn, I’d say that they are in different classes of badness: “somewhat bitter yet predictable outcome of a horrible mess” versus “boot stamping on a human face forever”.
What people consistently are not getting (going as far to call the Malthusian ems scenario a “hell world”) is that any minds that will exist in it will be well adapted to it.
So the question is really whether “boot stamping on a human face forever” is more or less worthy of being called a ‘hell world’ than “humanity is destroyed, replaced by trillions of alien slaves”.
I’ll have to think about that one.
I don’t consider it any worse than humanity being destroyed and replaced by nothing. Indeed I consider it marginally better in the same way I would consider it marginally better for mankind to go extinct without destroying the Earth’s ecosystem than all life on Earth being extinguished. Also in the em scenario we get a least a few if not all humans living through finite (perhaps a few centuries, perhaps a few millennia or even a million years, it is hard to tell) era of plenty.
On this we agree. I don’t see that it answers the question, though.
Actually it does. Hell world implies creatures suffering greatly. No one would call a world where humans just went extinct a hell world.
Why call a world where humans go extinct and aliens live a hell world?
Yup, and medieval peasants were well adapted to their world. We wouldn’t want to get adapted like that! I did say: “feels nicer to us”.
If you think medieval peasants would agree they where better off never existing at all you are probably mistaken. I would argue that if medieval peasant’s lives aren’t worth living, the odds are very poor that our own current lives are worth living.
You aren’t getting it. Well adapted as in alien, inhuman. Why would anything like a human mind be economical? And during the transition to inhuman minds we still get lots and lots and lots of utility from human-like minds living lives worth living.
I don’t know wire-heading just doesn’t feel nicer to me than a few millennia of fun followed by alien creatures inhabiting the universe. And if one is at all altruistic, the opinions of the alien creatures surely count for something.
Again, notice the “us”. Of course I didn’t mean that the hypothetical Malthusian ems would experience emotions such as misery or describe their existence as not worth it.
I was simply implying that, say, you or me might survive that long and… see things we think we should sympathize with but can’t.
You are right on that. I guess I’m not too bothered by that because I don’t expect to survive that long. Feeling glad or not bothered by someone getting to live a life he finds worthy but one I don’t appreciate is a much easier gesture in far mode. Actually living to see the em world would mean near mode would get a say too… and it may not be very pleased by what it sees.
It is easy to put up a sign “altruism” and declare you are more than pleased by minds existing and having fulfilling existences. It is much harder to live next door to a necrophiliac.