Those usually considered by admissions offices are known to be horrible and in fact were originally selected so as to allow tacit discrimination while maintaining a veneer of fairness (specifically to discriminate against Jews, who by previous measures of achievement would have dominated the Ivies for a couple decades. Asians are currently in that same position.)
Also, raw grade have been demonstrated to be better at predicting what?
When people talk about predictors of success in college, they’re usually talking about how well they predict completion of a four-year degree and/or college GPA. The first non-paywalled source I’ve found is this one, though I haven’t read it closely enough to vouch for its quality.
(Note that I’m agnostic on the object-level question here; this is not intended to be an endorsement.)
When people talk about predictors of success in college
Yes, but we are not talking about that. We are talking about “measures of talent” which, even given the fuzziness of the term, is clearly not limited to college GPA.
Two people in this thread has asserted that the usual measures (which I understand to be IQ proxies like the SAT and the high school GPA) are “poor” or “horrible”. I asked for better measures of talent and so far got pretty much nothing.
You’d think that, but when it’s actually put to the test, they’re found to be a much better predictor of academic ability than standardized methods. Grade inflation and the vagaries of the schools apparently all come out in the wash.
One reason for thinking that a measure of talent is poor might be that it is outperformed by other measures. There may not be genuinely good measures of talent. It does occur some sort of retrospective measure based on results is probably better than what the admissions office uses, but that is surely still not a perfect measure, and is also obviously not a practical option to replace what the admissions office uses (unless someone invents a time machine). Another reason to think a measure of talent is poor, though, and this is probably more applicable here, is that a measure may be considered suspect if there is reason to think it is really measuring something else entirely, perhaps because it correlates suspiciously strongly with factors regarded as independent of talent.
I would be interested to know what people consider to be better “measures of talent” than those usually considered by admissions office.
Those usually considered by admissions offices are known to be horrible and in fact were originally selected so as to allow tacit discrimination while maintaining a veneer of fairness (specifically to discriminate against Jews, who by previous measures of achievement would have dominated the Ivies for a couple decades. Asians are currently in that same position.)
I am still waiting for someone to be specific about what they consider to be better measures.
Raw grades have been demonstrated to be better, but still not good.
Link, please. Also, raw grade have been demonstrated to be better at predicting what?
When people talk about predictors of success in college, they’re usually talking about how well they predict completion of a four-year degree and/or college GPA. The first non-paywalled source I’ve found is this one, though I haven’t read it closely enough to vouch for its quality.
(Note that I’m agnostic on the object-level question here; this is not intended to be an endorsement.)
Yes, but we are not talking about that. We are talking about “measures of talent” which, even given the fuzziness of the term, is clearly not limited to college GPA.
Two people in this thread has asserted that the usual measures (which I understand to be IQ proxies like the SAT and the high school GPA) are “poor” or “horrible”. I asked for better measures of talent and so far got pretty much nothing.
Raw grades are notorious for being subject to grade inflation and otherwise depending on the specific high school.
You’d think that, but when it’s actually put to the test, they’re found to be a much better predictor of academic ability than standardized methods. Grade inflation and the vagaries of the schools apparently all come out in the wash.
They’re still subject to Goodhart’s law.
Also, how were those tests measuring academic ability.
One reason for thinking that a measure of talent is poor might be that it is outperformed by other measures. There may not be genuinely good measures of talent. It does occur some sort of retrospective measure based on results is probably better than what the admissions office uses, but that is surely still not a perfect measure, and is also obviously not a practical option to replace what the admissions office uses (unless someone invents a time machine). Another reason to think a measure of talent is poor, though, and this is probably more applicable here, is that a measure may be considered suspect if there is reason to think it is really measuring something else entirely, perhaps because it correlates suspiciously strongly with factors regarded as independent of talent.
Except you’re only evidence that those factors are independent of talent is that you declare any test that shows a correlation suspect.
Well, which ones? I am asking to name specific measures (and, of course, forward-looking—hindsight is not relevant here).