I think that most people (95%+) are at significant risk of being cognitively hijacked if they perceive rudeness, hostility, etc. from their interlocutor.
Would you include yourself in that 95%+?
there does not, as far as I’m aware, exist any intellectually generative community which operates on the norms you’re advocating for,
There certainly exist such communities. I’ve been part of multiple such, and have heard reports of numerous others.
Probably; I think I’m maybe in the 80th or 90th percentile on the axis of “can resist being hijacked”, but not 95th or higher.
There certainly exist such communities. I’ve been part of multiple such, and have heard reports of numerous others.
Can you list some? On a reread, my initial claim was too broad, in the sense that there are many things that could be called “intellectually generative communities” which could qualify, but they mostly aren’t the thing I care about (in context, not-tiny online communities where most members don’t have strong personal social ties to most other members).
Probably; I think I’m maybe in the 80th or 90th percentile on the axis of “can resist being hijacked”, but not 95th or higher.
Suppose you could move up along that axis, to the 95th percentile. Would you consider than a change for the better? For the worse? A neutral shift?
Can you list some?
I’m afraid I must decline to list any of the currently existing such communities which I have in mind, for reasons of prudence (or paranoia, if you like). (However, I will say that there is a very good chance that you’ve used websites or other software which were created in one of these places, or benefited from technological advances which were developed in one of these places.)
As for now-defunct such communities, though—well, there are many examples, although most of the ones I’m familiar with are domain-specific. A major category of such were web forums devoted to some hobby or other (D&D, World of Warcraft, other games), many of which were truly wondrous wellsprings of creativity and inventiveness in their respective domains—and which had norms basically identical to what Zack advocates.
Suppose you could move up along that axis, to the 95th percentile. Would you consider than a change for the better? For the worse? A neutral shift?
All else equal, better, of course. (In reality, all else is rarely equal; at a minimum there are opportunity costs.)
I’m afraid I must decline to list any of the currently existing such communities which I have in mind, for reasons of prudence (or paranoia, if you like). (However, I will say that there is a very good chance that you’ve used websites or other software which were created in one of these places, or benefited from technological advances which were developed in one of these places.)
See my response to Zack (and previous response to you) for clarification on the kinds of communities I had in mind; certainly I think such things are possible (& sometimes desirable) in more constrained circumstances.
ETA: and while in this case I have no particular reason to doubt your report that such communities exist, I have substantial reason to believe that if you were to share what those communities were with me, I probably wouldn’t find that most of them were meaningful counterevidence to my claim (for a variety of reasons, including that my initial claim was overbroad).
Suppose you could move up along that axis, to the 95th percentile. Would you consider than a change for the better? For the worse? A neutral shift?
All else equal, better, of course. (In reality, all else is rarely equal; at a minimum there are opportunity costs.)
Sure, opportunity costs are always a complication, but in this case they are somewhat beside the point. If indeed it’s better to be further along this axis (all else being equal), then it seems like a bad idea to encourage and incentivize being lower on this axis, and to discourage and disincentivize being further on it. But that is just what I see happening!
If indeed it’s better to be further along this axis (all else being equal), then it seems like a bad idea to encourage and incentivize being lower on this axis, and to discourage and disincentivize being further on it. But that is just what I see happening!
The consequent does not follow. It might be better for an individual to press a button, if pressing that button were free, which moved them further along that axis. It is not obviously better to structure communities like LessWrong in ways which optimize for participants being further along on this axis, both because this is not a reliable proxy for the thing we actually care about and because it’s not free.
That it’s “not free” is a trivial claim (very few things are truly free), but that it costs very little, to—not even encourage moving upward along that axis, but simply to avoid encouraging the opposite—to keep your thumb off the scales, as much as possible—this seems to me to be hard to dispute.
because this is not a reliable proxy for the thing we actually care about
Could you elaborate? What is the thing we actually care about, and what is the unreliable proxy?
See my response to Zack (and previous response to you) for clarification on the kinds of communities I had in mind; certainly I think such things are possible (& sometimes desirable) in more constrained circumstances.
Sorry, I’m not quite sure which “previous response” you refer to. Link, please?
As I mentioned in my reply to Said, I did in fact have medium-sized online communities in mind when writing that comment. I agree that stronger social bonds between individuals will usually change the calculus on communication norms. I also suspect that it’s positively tractable to change that frontier for any given individual relationship through deliberate effort, while that would be much more difficult[1] for larger communities.
they mostly aren’t the thing I care about (in context, not-tiny online communities where most members don’t have strong personal social ties to most other members)
So, “not-tiny online communities where most members don’t have strong personal social ties to most other members”…? But of course that is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind, too. (What did you think I was talking about…?)
Anyhow, please reconsider my claims, in light of this clarification.
ETA: and while in this case I have no particular reason to doubt your report that such communities exist, I have substantial reason to believe that if you were to share what those communities were with me, I probably wouldn’t find that most of them were meaningful counterevidence to my claim (for a variety of reasons, including that my initial claim was overbroad).
This is understandable, but in that case, do you care to reformulate your claim? I certainly don’t have any idea what you had in mind, given what you say here, so a clarification is in order, I think.
Would you include yourself in that 95%+?
There certainly exist such communities. I’ve been part of multiple such, and have heard reports of numerous others.
Probably; I think I’m maybe in the 80th or 90th percentile on the axis of “can resist being hijacked”, but not 95th or higher.
Can you list some? On a reread, my initial claim was too broad, in the sense that there are many things that could be called “intellectually generative communities” which could qualify, but they mostly aren’t the thing I care about (in context, not-tiny online communities where most members don’t have strong personal social ties to most other members).
Suppose you could move up along that axis, to the 95th percentile. Would you consider than a change for the better? For the worse? A neutral shift?
I’m afraid I must decline to list any of the currently existing such communities which I have in mind, for reasons of prudence (or paranoia, if you like). (However, I will say that there is a very good chance that you’ve used websites or other software which were created in one of these places, or benefited from technological advances which were developed in one of these places.)
As for now-defunct such communities, though—well, there are many examples, although most of the ones I’m familiar with are domain-specific. A major category of such were web forums devoted to some hobby or other (D&D, World of Warcraft, other games), many of which were truly wondrous wellsprings of creativity and inventiveness in their respective domains—and which had norms basically identical to what Zack advocates.
All else equal, better, of course. (In reality, all else is rarely equal; at a minimum there are opportunity costs.)
See my response to Zack (and previous response to you) for clarification on the kinds of communities I had in mind; certainly I think such things are possible (& sometimes desirable) in more constrained circumstances.
ETA: and while in this case I have no particular reason to doubt your report that such communities exist, I have substantial reason to believe that if you were to share what those communities were with me, I probably wouldn’t find that most of them were meaningful counterevidence to my claim (for a variety of reasons, including that my initial claim was overbroad).
Sure, opportunity costs are always a complication, but in this case they are somewhat beside the point. If indeed it’s better to be further along this axis (all else being equal), then it seems like a bad idea to encourage and incentivize being lower on this axis, and to discourage and disincentivize being further on it. But that is just what I see happening!
The consequent does not follow. It might be better for an individual to press a button, if pressing that button were free, which moved them further along that axis. It is not obviously better to structure communities like LessWrong in ways which optimize for participants being further along on this axis, both because this is not a reliable proxy for the thing we actually care about and because it’s not free.
That it’s “not free” is a trivial claim (very few things are truly free), but that it costs very little, to—not even encourage moving upward along that axis, but simply to avoid encouraging the opposite—to keep your thumb off the scales, as much as possible—this seems to me to be hard to dispute.
Could you elaborate? What is the thing we actually care about, and what is the unreliable proxy?
Sorry, I’m not quite sure which “previous response” you refer to. Link, please?
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/h2Hk2c2Gp5sY4abQh/lack-of-social-grace-is-an-epistemic-virtue?commentId=QQxjoGE24o6fz7CYm
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/h2Hk2c2Gp5sY4abQh/lack-of-social-grace-is-an-epistemic-virtue?commentId=Dy3uyzgvd2P9RZre6
So, “not-tiny online communities where most members don’t have strong personal social ties to most other members”…? But of course that is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind, too. (What did you think I was talking about…?)
Anyhow, please reconsider my claims, in light of this clarification.
This is understandable, but in that case, do you care to reformulate your claim? I certainly don’t have any idea what you had in mind, given what you say here, so a clarification is in order, I think.