I’m not an altruist and I don’t see any reasons to approach issues in this framework.
Ah. Well, the context of this thread was:
Because some Less Wrongers are planning on earning to give and finance is a commonly considered career option for those who are earning to give, I thought that it might be of interest to the Less Wrong community.
So, how do you want to measure it if you don’t trust the market?
I think that a significant issues of bias comes from people who are trying to be rationalist over-valuing things that are easy to measure just because they are easy to measure. I agree with you that it’s harder to measure, but that doesn’t mean it’s not just as important.
Let me give a quick thought experiment about my thinking of the subject. Let’s say that you really want to advance science as quickly as possible. Right now, your options are you can either work as a scientist for $40,000 a year, or you can work in finance, earn $100,000 a year, and then donate $20,000 a year to scientific research. If most people choose the better paying job, then the people hiring scientists will be forced to pay them more and more in order to hire them. Eventually, the price of a scientist would go up to $80,000 or $90,000 a year. So even though science is getting somewhat better funding from the extra charity money coming in, it’s likely not enough to cover the higher cost of hiring scientists.
That’s obviously an over-simplified example, and there’s really not enough information to say one way or the other, but that’s the way I’m thinking about the subject.
People say that they do. I think they quite often they are deluding themselves.
Perhaps. Human motivation is a very complicated thing, obviously.
I think, very often, “a job where I help people” and “a job I find personally satisfying” are very deeply linked concepts, at least for a lot of people. So, maybe people help people because they want to help people; maybe people help people because it makes them feel good when they help people; maybe people just want to think that they’re the kind of people who feel good when they help people, or maybe (most likely, even) it’s some combination of all three. So what?
And, of course, aren’t you assuming the automatic fulfillment of basic needs?
I’m assuming that the education job or science job or whatever does at least pay enough to fill basic needs, yes. If there aren’t any jobs at all in field X, then you probably shouldn’t go in that direction.
Let’s say that you really want to advance science as quickly as possible.
OK. The first question is, can you advance science? You get gold stars for participation only in the kindergarten. Any reason you think you will actually produce value as a scientist instead of being a burden to be dragged along?
Right now, your options are you can either work as a scientist for $40,000 a year, or you can work in finance, earn $100,000 a year, and then donate $20,000 a year to scientific research.
A funny comparison you’re setting up. For equivalent situations, don’t you want to donate $60,000?
So even though science is getting somewhat better funding from the extra charity money coming in, it’s likely not enough to cover the higher cost of hiring scientists.
That may or may not be true—you will have to make strong assumptions about several things to argue any side of this case.
So what?
The point is that altruism is rare. Not that many people are willing to make personal sacrifices purely for the good of others.
OK. The first question is, can you advance science? You get gold stars for participation only in the kindergarten. Any reason you think you will actually produce value as a scientist instead of being a burden to be dragged along?
You could just as easily ask “can you succeed in finance”? Obviously, if you don’t actually have the ability to do a certain job, then you probably shouldn’t make that your career path.
For equivalent situations, don’t you want to donate $60,000?
I would say that if you are working in finance, living in a financial center (say, New York City), and most people you know are also working in finance, it would be very difficult to live on $40,000 a year. You would be expected by your social acquaintances to own expensive suits, to drive a nice car, to go on expensive social outings, ect.
Giving 20% of your income, the way I’m suggesting, is itself a really, really hard thing to do. Most people don’t manage to give 10%.
The point is that altruism is rare. Not that many people are willing to make personal sacrifices purely for the good of others.
Interesting. What makes you think that? My impression is that most people tend to be at least somewhat altruistic, and that “altruistic emotional rewards” (like “the joy you get from helping someone else”) tend to be a major driving factor in many people’s decision making processes.
Ah. Well, the context of this thread was:
I think that a significant issues of bias comes from people who are trying to be rationalist over-valuing things that are easy to measure just because they are easy to measure. I agree with you that it’s harder to measure, but that doesn’t mean it’s not just as important.
Let me give a quick thought experiment about my thinking of the subject. Let’s say that you really want to advance science as quickly as possible. Right now, your options are you can either work as a scientist for $40,000 a year, or you can work in finance, earn $100,000 a year, and then donate $20,000 a year to scientific research. If most people choose the better paying job, then the people hiring scientists will be forced to pay them more and more in order to hire them. Eventually, the price of a scientist would go up to $80,000 or $90,000 a year. So even though science is getting somewhat better funding from the extra charity money coming in, it’s likely not enough to cover the higher cost of hiring scientists.
That’s obviously an over-simplified example, and there’s really not enough information to say one way or the other, but that’s the way I’m thinking about the subject.
Perhaps. Human motivation is a very complicated thing, obviously.
I think, very often, “a job where I help people” and “a job I find personally satisfying” are very deeply linked concepts, at least for a lot of people. So, maybe people help people because they want to help people; maybe people help people because it makes them feel good when they help people; maybe people just want to think that they’re the kind of people who feel good when they help people, or maybe (most likely, even) it’s some combination of all three. So what?
I’m assuming that the education job or science job or whatever does at least pay enough to fill basic needs, yes. If there aren’t any jobs at all in field X, then you probably shouldn’t go in that direction.
OK. The first question is, can you advance science? You get gold stars for participation only in the kindergarten. Any reason you think you will actually produce value as a scientist instead of being a burden to be dragged along?
A funny comparison you’re setting up. For equivalent situations, don’t you want to donate $60,000?
That may or may not be true—you will have to make strong assumptions about several things to argue any side of this case.
The point is that altruism is rare. Not that many people are willing to make personal sacrifices purely for the good of others.
You could just as easily ask “can you succeed in finance”? Obviously, if you don’t actually have the ability to do a certain job, then you probably shouldn’t make that your career path.
I would say that if you are working in finance, living in a financial center (say, New York City), and most people you know are also working in finance, it would be very difficult to live on $40,000 a year. You would be expected by your social acquaintances to own expensive suits, to drive a nice car, to go on expensive social outings, ect.
Giving 20% of your income, the way I’m suggesting, is itself a really, really hard thing to do. Most people don’t manage to give 10%.
Interesting. What makes you think that? My impression is that most people tend to be at least somewhat altruistic, and that “altruistic emotional rewards” (like “the joy you get from helping someone else”) tend to be a major driving factor in many people’s decision making processes.
I am not quite sure why that is relevant. Expectations of your social acquaintances are a really bad way to run your life.
I look at what people do, not at what they say.