Before seeing your reply, I added this paragraph to the end of my post:
While this may simply be an oversight, your post fails to acknowledge more reasoned and less sexist discussion of pickup on LessWrong that is critical of it (like mine, at least in my hopes), and critiques of pickup ideology when it has been presented (e.g. pjeby’s critique of Sirducer’s posts), presented by some of the very people who think there is value in the community and discussing it on LessWrong. While I support your requests for non-sexist and gender neutral language, I think your portrayal of the discussions of pickup on LessWrong is skewed due to these omissions.
Continuing on:
I have acknowledged that there are some tactics described by pickup artists that seem to me perfectly aboveboard ethics-wise. It is possible that some pickup artists use those tactics exclusively. I would not object to uncritical discussions of such artists, and do not object to uncritical discussions of such techniques.
I acknowledge that you have acknowledged that some pickup tactics are ethics. Given that you wouldn’t object to discussions of such techniques, where why you suggesting a moratorium on discussion pickup in the other thread?
I don’t assume that; people who are not affiliated with the legal system can suspect others of being violent criminals and act accordingly in discriminatory ways.
Ok. When you said this:
Note that of course there are also female privileges, but until Less Wrong hosts custody battles or we start suspecting that some of us might be violent criminals, they are unlikely to come into play nearly so much in this location.
It sounded like you were saying that female advantages weren’t much of a concern other than particular legal advantages women may have over men. I was pointing out that there are other female advantages in society that may be more relevant to LessWrong, such as the tendency for female perspectives to be seen as the default in discussions about sexuality and romance (see Cancian work I cited on the “feminization of love”).
The paragraph in question was a caricature. I did not intend that part to be an unaltered representation; people can read the original comments in their original contexts quite easily. I apologize if this was unclear.
Thanks for clarifying. Still, I think your post in general gives a skewed account of the discussions on pickup on LessWrong; see the paragraph I added into my previous post and quote at the beginning of this one. Consequently, it bothers me that people are considering a moratorium on discussion of pickup partly due to a skewed idea they might have gotten from reading your original post.
I read this blog and usually follow links people post in discussions on the subject here.
I suspect that these materials are insufficient to get an idea of the breadth of the views in the seduction community. For instance, in How to be a Pickup Artist, Juggler argues that pickup:
also takes honesty. You probably didn’t expect to see that word in a book on picking up women. Surprise. A true pick-up artist is not a player. While a player schemes and hides and sneaks around to get in an extra bit on his girlfriend or wife, the pick-up
artist has neither the inkling nor time to do that. He seeks to be straight with the women who are involved with him. He has contempt for dishonesty and considers the player an unskilled opportunist. (p. 2)
Here’s another couple links for you here and here, demonstrating the extreme “inner game” approach. The Authentic Man Program wouldn’t consider themselves part of the pickup community, yet many of the guys who do AMP’s programs are into pickup, they advertise in the community, and I see them as basically involved in the same kind of self-improvement project with a different focus.
I think your portrayal of the discussions of pickup on LessWrong is skewed due to these omissions.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
Given that you wouldn’t object to discussions of such techniques, where why you suggesting a moratorium on discussion pickup in the other thread?
Because, as I said, I don’t think it’s likely that a less clear-cut, brightly-outlined policy will have an adequate effect.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
You may not have intended to represent the entirety of the discussion of pickup on LessWrong, but it seems that others may read your post this way leading to a moral panic.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
Right, I agree that those posts exhibit problems. And those posts were roundly criticized. Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution? I’ll address your other comment you linked to separately.
P.S. In case you’re wondering, I’m not the one downvoting your last couple comments.
Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution?
I guess I don’t see it as quite the “dogpile” you do, especially since I feel the need to chime in about it very frequently and (as I said in the toplevel post) this isn’t my hobby or anything. I do not want the job; I’d rather hang back, sling votes occasionally, maybe identify simple flaws like misquotes.
ciphergoth’s comment was appreciated. As for pjeby, I have (apparently) misunderstood him on such a regular basis that I’m not confident in identifying him as being on any particular side of any particular disagreement. Three people, one of whom is arguably ambiguous and at least one of whom doesn’t want to be there, is a fairly pathetic dogpile.
How many dogs it takes to make a dogpile, and how enthusiastic those dogs must be, is really a side question.
The point is that Sirducer encountered significant and vigorous disagreement, disagreement that I think would have been worth mentioning in your original post. And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong, a category that you seem to think is unreliable for having valuable discussions on this subject. See some highlights from the rather harsh comment by pjeby:
Honestly, though, based on the entitlement attitude you’ve been showing, I suspect the reason your “honest” approach flopped was a function of your inner game, not of the women.[...]
To me, that says it’s not the women. It’s you.[...]
So frankly, you sound like you don’t like women or yourself very much. That, IMO, is the “something wrong with this”.[...]
Regardless of whether pjeby is generally on your “side,” he sounds like he is in that post. Also, in terms of debunking a problematic post by a PUA, someone with insider knowledge can supply a lot more credibility, and the PUA will be less able to object that his interlocutor doesn’t get it or lacks field experience.
And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong
Denotationally, the statement above is true, but connotationally, it’s false. My only “interest” in this area is correcting misconceptions and answering questions. If there are no questions to answer and no attacks or mistakes to correct, I am perfectly fine with never bringing the subject up myself. To the extent that PUA overlaps with topics of my interest, those topics also apply to marketing, and other less-controversial subjects.
Thanks for clarifying. The point I was using you to try to make was that people motivated to discuss this topic (for whatever reason) and who have some level of insider creds (which I accord to you because you actually know what you are talking about on this subject and have experience) already police each other in ways not acknowledged by the original post, which also contradicts the panic about LessWrong threads turning into locker rooms.
I understand that, but I also don’t really want to be the PUA police any more than (I understand) Alicorn wants to be the feminism police.
(Also, it’s inaccurate to describe me as having PUA experience. I simply have some experiences that support the usefulness of certain ideas proposed by PUAs. Amongst actual PUA’s I would be considered a “keyboard jockey” or “rAFC” at best.)
Before seeing your reply, I added this paragraph to the end of my post:
Continuing on:
I acknowledge that you have acknowledged that some pickup tactics are ethics. Given that you wouldn’t object to discussions of such techniques, where why you suggesting a moratorium on discussion pickup in the other thread?
Ok. When you said this:
It sounded like you were saying that female advantages weren’t much of a concern other than particular legal advantages women may have over men. I was pointing out that there are other female advantages in society that may be more relevant to LessWrong, such as the tendency for female perspectives to be seen as the default in discussions about sexuality and romance (see Cancian work I cited on the “feminization of love”).
Thanks for clarifying. Still, I think your post in general gives a skewed account of the discussions on pickup on LessWrong; see the paragraph I added into my previous post and quote at the beginning of this one. Consequently, it bothers me that people are considering a moratorium on discussion of pickup partly due to a skewed idea they might have gotten from reading your original post.
I suspect that these materials are insufficient to get an idea of the breadth of the views in the seduction community. For instance, in How to be a Pickup Artist, Juggler argues that pickup:
Here’s another couple links for you here and here, demonstrating the extreme “inner game” approach. The Authentic Man Program wouldn’t consider themselves part of the pickup community, yet many of the guys who do AMP’s programs are into pickup, they advertise in the community, and I see them as basically involved in the same kind of self-improvement project with a different focus.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
Because, as I said, I don’t think it’s likely that a less clear-cut, brightly-outlined policy will have an adequate effect.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
You may not have intended to represent the entirety of the discussion of pickup on LessWrong, but it seems that others may read your post this way leading to a moral panic.
Right, I agree that those posts exhibit problems. And those posts were roundly criticized. Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution? I’ll address your other comment you linked to separately.
P.S. In case you’re wondering, I’m not the one downvoting your last couple comments.
I guess I don’t see it as quite the “dogpile” you do, especially since I feel the need to chime in about it very frequently and (as I said in the toplevel post) this isn’t my hobby or anything. I do not want the job; I’d rather hang back, sling votes occasionally, maybe identify simple flaws like misquotes.
I’m thinking of the example with Sirducer, specifically. You, pjeby, and ciphergoth jumped on him. Sounds like a dogpile to me.
ciphergoth’s comment was appreciated. As for pjeby, I have (apparently) misunderstood him on such a regular basis that I’m not confident in identifying him as being on any particular side of any particular disagreement. Three people, one of whom is arguably ambiguous and at least one of whom doesn’t want to be there, is a fairly pathetic dogpile.
How many dogs it takes to make a dogpile, and how enthusiastic those dogs must be, is really a side question.
The point is that Sirducer encountered significant and vigorous disagreement, disagreement that I think would have been worth mentioning in your original post. And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong, a category that you seem to think is unreliable for having valuable discussions on this subject. See some highlights from the rather harsh comment by pjeby:
Regardless of whether pjeby is generally on your “side,” he sounds like he is in that post. Also, in terms of debunking a problematic post by a PUA, someone with insider knowledge can supply a lot more credibility, and the PUA will be less able to object that his interlocutor doesn’t get it or lacks field experience.
Denotationally, the statement above is true, but connotationally, it’s false. My only “interest” in this area is correcting misconceptions and answering questions. If there are no questions to answer and no attacks or mistakes to correct, I am perfectly fine with never bringing the subject up myself. To the extent that PUA overlaps with topics of my interest, those topics also apply to marketing, and other less-controversial subjects.
Thanks for clarifying. The point I was using you to try to make was that people motivated to discuss this topic (for whatever reason) and who have some level of insider creds (which I accord to you because you actually know what you are talking about on this subject and have experience) already police each other in ways not acknowledged by the original post, which also contradicts the panic about LessWrong threads turning into locker rooms.
I understand that, but I also don’t really want to be the PUA police any more than (I understand) Alicorn wants to be the feminism police.
(Also, it’s inaccurate to describe me as having PUA experience. I simply have some experiences that support the usefulness of certain ideas proposed by PUAs. Amongst actual PUA’s I would be considered a “keyboard jockey” or “rAFC” at best.)