Hey, thanks yourself for responding in such depth. I didn’t mean to imply that I was agreeing completely with ShiftedShapes, or disagreeing completely with you. I’m afraid my last post was a little rushed because I had to leave for work, so there are a few errors and I wasn’t as clear as I would have liked. I definitely agree with your points about the importance of perspective—I think the perspective we should consider here is that of the human condition: what Heidegger would have called Dasein.
In that case, I think the uncertainty that stems from differing perspectives is tangential to the problem at hand. ShiftedShapes said:
The explanation one chooses to attribute to sensory experience is subject to uncertainty, but the experience itself is certain to exist.
It sounds like all three of us agree with the first part of that statement, since the content of experience is contingent on dasein. I want to make the case, though, that experience itself is neither “certain to exist”, nor “uncertain to exist”. I think that “experience itself” is fundamental to dasein, and that therefore cannot be subject to either certainty nor uncertainty. I think the existence of experience is what Wittgenstein would have called a hinge proposition: one of the propositions which constitute the frame of our perspective, which we use to form the question of whether or not a given proposition is certain or not.
As you rightly point out, there is a close parallel here to axiomatic logic. That said, I’m not suggesting that “experience exists” is merely an axiom, because although axioms do help to define the frame of a system, they’re still sometimes contingent and so we can sometimes still talk of their certainty or uncertainty. Famously, Euclid’s fifth axiom, the Parallel Postulate, can either be affirmed or denied to create different geometries. It’s important to note, though, that an axiom of any particular system can’t be proven from within that system, any more than Baron Munchausen could pick himself up by his own bootlaces. If “experience itself” really is a fundamental element of dasein, then, we can think of it as an axiom of the human condition. Since we can only observe from within the human condition, this places the question of the existence of experience beyond proof or disproof, beyond contingency, and therefore beyond certainty or uncertainty.
I also believe that there are many things that we would agree on; my arguments are just an indication that I currently find certain aspects of this topic interesting to argue about—mind expanding. :)
I want to make the case, though, that experience itself is neither “certain to exist”, nor “uncertain to exist”. I think that “experience itself” is fundamental to Dasein, and that therefore cannot be subject to either certainty nor uncertainty.
I am happy to hold my arguments against certainty for shiftedShapes—however I will now make similar arguments against your claim that ‘”experience itself” is fundamental to dasein’.
The identification of a fundamental nature of Dasein requires a perspective and so is contingent on that perspective, and presumably on the limited access that perspective has to the thing it identifies as Dasein.
I will offer a competing view. Dasein is only fundamentally ‘blue hat’. It feels obviously ‘blue hat’ to me; without ‘blue hat’ it would not be Dasein; nothing else about it is essential.
Presumably neither of our claims change the actual nature of what we are attempting to refer to when we say Dasein. Dasein and our conceptions of it are concepts generated by and within… well, by and within our Dasein in some limited sense.
The problem with both of our claims is then sense in which we are attempting to establish a description as a matter-of-fact. We are implying a universal perspective from which our claims can be understood to be true. Such a perspective seems inaccessible to me, so I will treat this kind of attribution as an error, perhaps as a ‘not even wrong’.
So I agree that experience itself is neither “certain to exist”, nor “uncertain to exist”, but in the same mode I would add that “experience itself” (or “blue hat”) is neither “fundamental to Dasein” nor “non-fundamental to Dasein”. At least I would make this assessment when there appears to be an implied universal perspective involved.
If “experience itself” really is a fundamental element of dasein, then, we can think of it as an axiom of the human condition. Since we can only observe from within the human condition, this places the question of the existence of experience beyond proof or disproof, beyond contingency, and therefore beyond certainty or uncertainty.
If you were to say that there is a perspective from within the human condition, from which “experience itself” appears to be a fundamental element of Dasein. I would not argue, it is an ontology we can work with as long as it seems useful. If you were say that this perspective was primary, complete, unquestionable, fundamental, or certain then I am currently tempted to question the basis of your claim, the perspective from which your claim is made, or from which it holds.
Ah, here is where our opinions diverge sharply. I should mention quickly that I have edited my above post slightly—I had accidentally left out a few words at the beginning of the first paragraph. I don’t think it changes the thrust of my argument at all.
I have to tell you, I think you’re misapplying this whole “problem of perspective” thing. I agree that it exists, but I don’t think it’s as far reaching as you’re implying: if it were, it would be impossible for anyone to understand anything ever. We are able to understand some things, so, QED...
Reading back, I think you missed my point on this in my first comment, when I was talking about a reductio ad absurdum. Here’s the problem I see:
I’m walking along one day and I walk past a tree. I say to myself, “What’s that over there?” And then I interpret the experience from my perspective as Argency and guess, “It seems to be a tree.” But then I run into a problem—what does this experience of “seeming to see a tree” mean? I need some perspective from which to interpret it. And even if I successfully interpret it, what will the interpretation mean, and the interpretation of the interpretation, and so on ad infinitum?
Interpreted meanings are experiences themselves, so if we require our experiences to be interpreted from some perspective in order to be understood, we’ll end up with an infinite stack of interpretations and no meaning at the bottom. But we do experience meaning every day—when I walk past a tree I say, “look, a tree!” Any argument that implies otherwise must be absurd.
So we can conclude that not every piece of information requires interpretation from some perspective. Specifically, our own thoughts and experiences (which are actually physical events which happen in our brains) gain meaning by the way they interlock and relate to one another, and need not be interpreted by any homunculus in order to be understood by us, the thinkers. There’s no need for a universal perspective (no such thing exists) because we have our own perspective ready-made, and wrapped up in a neat little bundle of meat and bone.
This is why analytic philosophers so often despair while trying to talk to continental philosophers, I think. Sure, there’s no absolute, objective, universal meaning, and sure, meaning is entirely dependent on perspective, but we’re lucky enough to have a perspective from which to interpret things. Even luckier, each of our perspectives is similar enough that we can use a common language to translate our experiences between our slightly-differing perspectives.
So, ShiftedShapes said that “experience must exist”, which is right up there next to “cogito ergo sum”. I will agree that without context that assertion is meaningless, and I am willing to allow that maybe there is some mixed up perspective from which experience could be said not to exist. But ShiftedShapes is a human being, and was talking to other human beings, and there is undeniably an implied context here that this statement should be interpreted from within the perspective of thinking beings.
I don’t agree with SS either, though, because as I said, the existence of experiences is a hinge proposition of thinking beings. It isn’t possible to have a thinking being who doesn’t have experiences, so the existence of experiences is something that is part of our perspective, not something that is revealed by our perspective. So, here we can’t talk about certainty or uncertainty, correctness or incorrectness, because it isn’t possible to prove a system’s axioms from within that system. :)
Hey, thanks yourself for responding in such depth. I didn’t mean to imply that I was agreeing completely with ShiftedShapes, or disagreeing completely with you. I’m afraid my last post was a little rushed because I had to leave for work, so there are a few errors and I wasn’t as clear as I would have liked. I definitely agree with your points about the importance of perspective—I think the perspective we should consider here is that of the human condition: what Heidegger would have called Dasein.
In that case, I think the uncertainty that stems from differing perspectives is tangential to the problem at hand. ShiftedShapes said:
It sounds like all three of us agree with the first part of that statement, since the content of experience is contingent on dasein. I want to make the case, though, that experience itself is neither “certain to exist”, nor “uncertain to exist”. I think that “experience itself” is fundamental to dasein, and that therefore cannot be subject to either certainty nor uncertainty. I think the existence of experience is what Wittgenstein would have called a hinge proposition: one of the propositions which constitute the frame of our perspective, which we use to form the question of whether or not a given proposition is certain or not.
As you rightly point out, there is a close parallel here to axiomatic logic. That said, I’m not suggesting that “experience exists” is merely an axiom, because although axioms do help to define the frame of a system, they’re still sometimes contingent and so we can sometimes still talk of their certainty or uncertainty. Famously, Euclid’s fifth axiom, the Parallel Postulate, can either be affirmed or denied to create different geometries. It’s important to note, though, that an axiom of any particular system can’t be proven from within that system, any more than Baron Munchausen could pick himself up by his own bootlaces. If “experience itself” really is a fundamental element of dasein, then, we can think of it as an axiom of the human condition. Since we can only observe from within the human condition, this places the question of the existence of experience beyond proof or disproof, beyond contingency, and therefore beyond certainty or uncertainty.
I also believe that there are many things that we would agree on; my arguments are just an indication that I currently find certain aspects of this topic interesting to argue about—mind expanding. :)
I am happy to hold my arguments against certainty for shiftedShapes—however I will now make similar arguments against your claim that ‘”experience itself” is fundamental to dasein’.
The identification of a fundamental nature of Dasein requires a perspective and so is contingent on that perspective, and presumably on the limited access that perspective has to the thing it identifies as Dasein.
I will offer a competing view. Dasein is only fundamentally ‘blue hat’. It feels obviously ‘blue hat’ to me; without ‘blue hat’ it would not be Dasein; nothing else about it is essential.
Presumably neither of our claims change the actual nature of what we are attempting to refer to when we say Dasein. Dasein and our conceptions of it are concepts generated by and within… well, by and within our Dasein in some limited sense.
The problem with both of our claims is then sense in which we are attempting to establish a description as a matter-of-fact. We are implying a universal perspective from which our claims can be understood to be true. Such a perspective seems inaccessible to me, so I will treat this kind of attribution as an error, perhaps as a ‘not even wrong’.
So I agree that experience itself is neither “certain to exist”, nor “uncertain to exist”, but in the same mode I would add that “experience itself” (or “blue hat”) is neither “fundamental to Dasein” nor “non-fundamental to Dasein”. At least I would make this assessment when there appears to be an implied universal perspective involved.
If you were to say that there is a perspective from within the human condition, from which “experience itself” appears to be a fundamental element of Dasein. I would not argue, it is an ontology we can work with as long as it seems useful. If you were say that this perspective was primary, complete, unquestionable, fundamental, or certain then I am currently tempted to question the basis of your claim, the perspective from which your claim is made, or from which it holds.
Ah, here is where our opinions diverge sharply. I should mention quickly that I have edited my above post slightly—I had accidentally left out a few words at the beginning of the first paragraph. I don’t think it changes the thrust of my argument at all.
I have to tell you, I think you’re misapplying this whole “problem of perspective” thing. I agree that it exists, but I don’t think it’s as far reaching as you’re implying: if it were, it would be impossible for anyone to understand anything ever. We are able to understand some things, so, QED...
Reading back, I think you missed my point on this in my first comment, when I was talking about a reductio ad absurdum. Here’s the problem I see: I’m walking along one day and I walk past a tree. I say to myself, “What’s that over there?” And then I interpret the experience from my perspective as Argency and guess, “It seems to be a tree.” But then I run into a problem—what does this experience of “seeming to see a tree” mean? I need some perspective from which to interpret it. And even if I successfully interpret it, what will the interpretation mean, and the interpretation of the interpretation, and so on ad infinitum?
Interpreted meanings are experiences themselves, so if we require our experiences to be interpreted from some perspective in order to be understood, we’ll end up with an infinite stack of interpretations and no meaning at the bottom. But we do experience meaning every day—when I walk past a tree I say, “look, a tree!” Any argument that implies otherwise must be absurd.
So we can conclude that not every piece of information requires interpretation from some perspective. Specifically, our own thoughts and experiences (which are actually physical events which happen in our brains) gain meaning by the way they interlock and relate to one another, and need not be interpreted by any homunculus in order to be understood by us, the thinkers. There’s no need for a universal perspective (no such thing exists) because we have our own perspective ready-made, and wrapped up in a neat little bundle of meat and bone.
This is why analytic philosophers so often despair while trying to talk to continental philosophers, I think. Sure, there’s no absolute, objective, universal meaning, and sure, meaning is entirely dependent on perspective, but we’re lucky enough to have a perspective from which to interpret things. Even luckier, each of our perspectives is similar enough that we can use a common language to translate our experiences between our slightly-differing perspectives.
So, ShiftedShapes said that “experience must exist”, which is right up there next to “cogito ergo sum”. I will agree that without context that assertion is meaningless, and I am willing to allow that maybe there is some mixed up perspective from which experience could be said not to exist. But ShiftedShapes is a human being, and was talking to other human beings, and there is undeniably an implied context here that this statement should be interpreted from within the perspective of thinking beings.
I don’t agree with SS either, though, because as I said, the existence of experiences is a hinge proposition of thinking beings. It isn’t possible to have a thinking being who doesn’t have experiences, so the existence of experiences is something that is part of our perspective, not something that is revealed by our perspective. So, here we can’t talk about certainty or uncertainty, correctness or incorrectness, because it isn’t possible to prove a system’s axioms from within that system. :)