It is standard practice—by those in the know—to use restricted animals as controls in CR experiments—in order to help to avoid this criticism. The controls actually need to live longer than normal, to help prove that the researchers haven’t screwed up somewhere with diet, conditions, pathogens—or whetever.
Some researchers don’t do this—and their evidence is promptly discarded by those who understand the issue.
Anyway, it hardly seems fair to bill this effect as “Evidence against Calorie Restriction”. This is a well-known and well understood effect for those in the field. Dietary energy restriction enthusiasts are not basing their diet on this kind of screwed-up evidence in the first place.
It is standard practice—by those in the know—to use restricted animals as controls in CR experiments—in order to help to avoid this criticism.
Can you expand this statement? I’m not sure what you mean. You seem to be distinguishing between “restricted” and “caloric restricted” but it isn’t obvious what distinction you are making.
I don’t understand your question. “Proper” CR experiements use skinny experimental animals and skinny controls. Maybe 20% and 40% restricted—precisely to make sure that the control animals are not sick and obese.
Comparing with obese animals is bad—for all the reasons recently elaborated on—however this is really very old news in the community that are actually on such diets—and among most of the scientists involved.
I understand what you’re saying after reading this comment, but the quotation below still seems unclear.
It is standard practice—by those in the know—to use restricted animals as controls in CR experiments
“Dietary energy restriction”, “calorie restriction”, “CR” and “restricted” were intended as synonyms.
With no distinction between restricted and calorie restricted, it seems like you are saying that in Calorie Restriction experiments the control group mice are on calorie restricted diets, as presumably are the test group mice. This is confusing to me.
I understand now (the control group mice are restricted but less so), but maybe the first comment could be edited for better understanding?
It is standard practice—by those in the know—to use restricted animals as controls in CR experiments—in order to help to avoid this criticism. The controls actually need to live longer than normal, to help prove that the researchers haven’t screwed up somewhere with diet, conditions, pathogens—or whetever.
Some researchers don’t do this—and their evidence is promptly discarded by those who understand the issue.
Anyway, it hardly seems fair to bill this effect as “Evidence against Calorie Restriction”. This is a well-known and well understood effect for those in the field. Dietary energy restriction enthusiasts are not basing their diet on this kind of screwed-up evidence in the first place.
Can you expand this statement? I’m not sure what you mean. You seem to be distinguishing between “restricted” and “caloric restricted” but it isn’t obvious what distinction you are making.
No such distinction was intended.
“Dietary energy restriction”, “calorie restriction”, “CR” and “restricted” were intended as synonyms.
Then what do you mean by:
One is comparing CR animals to non-CR animals. What do you mean by this?
I don’t understand your question. “Proper” CR experiements use skinny experimental animals and skinny controls. Maybe 20% and 40% restricted—precisely to make sure that the control animals are not sick and obese.
Comparing with obese animals is bad—for all the reasons recently elaborated on—however this is really very old news in the community that are actually on such diets—and among most of the scientists involved.
I understand what you’re saying after reading this comment, but the quotation below still seems unclear.
With no distinction between restricted and calorie restricted, it seems like you are saying that in Calorie Restriction experiments the control group mice are on calorie restricted diets, as presumably are the test group mice. This is confusing to me.
I understand now (the control group mice are restricted but less so), but maybe the first comment could be edited for better understanding?
Ah ok. I got the point. The point is that one uses different degrees of restriction and doesn’t include any animals that could be classified as obese.
Good! I was hoping this would be the case.