so that’s something I’d push back on gently. I can understand the concern, id prefer to see both names used if you’re highly concerned about that. I’ve -karma +agree voted your comments with only that person’s old name and I think someone else had too.
agree vote. I’d met several of them. I’m just saying that of the reasoning errors, erroneous transition is the one I’d express the most uncertainty about. I wouldn’t object to you using the name Chris, just to not respecting the possibility that that might have been real. enough of them were actually trans women; I wouldn’t be surprised if this was ziz using a person’s genetic predisposition for transition to manipulate them, for example, in which case they probably would have eventually transitioned anyway once it became convenient in normal life. I would remove karma downvotes if you were to express uncertainty. it’s ok to question, but it seems like concerning jumping to conclusions to assert you know for sure.
Most trans women you meet likely didn’t identify highly that way because of a high invasive psychological process involving sleep derivation with the intent of awakening an internal part that has its own identity.
If you think that this process just surfaced what’s already there, it’s odd to call the sleep deprivation manipulative. It seems like you have certainty that the sleep deprivation was manipulative, but don’t take the logical conclusion that the result of it is problematic.
just to not respecting the possibility that that might have been real. enough of them were actually trans women
This is belief in belief. Belief in the meme of some platonic realness. It’s a thought-stopper. The fact that this is a potent tool for stopping people from engaging in critical thinking is one of the dynamics that Ziz used to protect against criticism.
This is a story about a bunch of naive people who fell for Ziz. It’s about highly sophisticated intelligent people doing so, and the tools used to get people to stop to think are at that level.
It’s also about the complex process of inducing alternative personalities. I have an idea of how that works in hypnosis and can extrapolate from that to how the process Ziz describes for splitting people’s identity into two (supposedly one for each hemisphere) could do that whether or not Ziz’s idea of bihemispherec identity is correct.
If you want one example of someone having a problem with induced personalities take this reddit thread. Do you call the guy his legal name or do you call him Bambi? If the Bambi personality wins out gets a lot of power and then commits suicide, should you refer to him by his legal name or by Bambi when you speak about him?
I don’t want to keep defending this because you’re almost entirely right and as a trans person myself I just personally cringe at the idea of being certain that someone in distress was Actually Not Trans Because They Were Manipulated. that’s… really the extent of it. We won’t reach a resolution on this because it doesn’t matter, the key point is there was intense manipulation and a split personality was intentionally created by manipulation. Whether that person was truly trans underneath is unknowable and I am quite willing to admit the reason I’m cringing against refusing to acknowledge that, but it really is mostly about those besides the person in question, so … shrug. If they’d been a woman to start with it would still be just as bad.
I’ve turned my downvote into an upvote because −6 seems too low for just this. The fact that people’s self-expression can be manipulated does in fact make it ambiguous whether that occurred or whether there was real self-expression. some people really are bullied. it’s also extremely likely that a group of trans people collected people who seemed at a minimum naturally inclined to not be cis, so I am inclined to bet that this person really had some gender stuff going on. regardless, ziz destroyed them, and chris or maia, we must mourn the one known as pazek.
I would in fact bet that the sleep deprivation thing made them more inclined to transition when they did, but would personally roll to disbelieve that it was the only cause of transition. That’s really it.
This is a story about a bunch of naive people who fell for Ziz. It’s about highly sophisticated intelligent people doing so, and the tools used to get people to stop to think are at that level.
Is there a missing “not” in the first sentence?
ETA: Or a missing “not only” in the first and an “also” in the second.
I’m not sure what you mean with their suicide notice. They wrote a post on their blog arguing for life being meaningless because all the memories being forgotten after death anyway. Do you mean that document?
I read that at the time it was posted and there was time between that document and the actual suicide. I got to know about the suicide itself a substantial amount of time later and got deeper information by talking to one of their roommates. The version of events that their roommate told me did not include Ziz. Later, I read Ziz account and assume that Ziz had no good reason to lie about a lot of the involved details as they don’t make Ziz look good.
If there’s a separate suicide note, I’d be happy to read it.
so that’s something I’d push back on gently. I can understand the concern, id prefer to see both names used if you’re highly concerned about that. I’ve -karma +agree voted your comments with only that person’s old name and I think someone else had too.
How much of the underlying details of what went on do you know and how much are you pattern-matching from other situations?
It seems to me inconsequent to say that sleep deprivation was a problem here but at the same time argue that the effect of it shouldn’t be questioned.
agree vote. I’d met several of them. I’m just saying that of the reasoning errors, erroneous transition is the one I’d express the most uncertainty about. I wouldn’t object to you using the name Chris, just to not respecting the possibility that that might have been real. enough of them were actually trans women; I wouldn’t be surprised if this was ziz using a person’s genetic predisposition for transition to manipulate them, for example, in which case they probably would have eventually transitioned anyway once it became convenient in normal life. I would remove karma downvotes if you were to express uncertainty. it’s ok to question, but it seems like concerning jumping to conclusions to assert you know for sure.
Most trans women you meet likely didn’t identify highly that way because of a high invasive psychological process involving sleep derivation with the intent of awakening an internal part that has its own identity.
If you think that this process just surfaced what’s already there, it’s odd to call the sleep deprivation manipulative. It seems like you have certainty that the sleep deprivation was manipulative, but don’t take the logical conclusion that the result of it is problematic.
This is belief in belief. Belief in the meme of some platonic realness. It’s a thought-stopper. The fact that this is a potent tool for stopping people from engaging in critical thinking is one of the dynamics that Ziz used to protect against criticism.
This is a story about a bunch of naive people who fell for Ziz. It’s about highly sophisticated intelligent people doing so, and the tools used to get people to stop to think are at that level.
It’s also about the complex process of inducing alternative personalities. I have an idea of how that works in hypnosis and can extrapolate from that to how the process Ziz describes for splitting people’s identity into two (supposedly one for each hemisphere) could do that whether or not Ziz’s idea of bihemispherec identity is correct.
If you want one example of someone having a problem with induced personalities take this reddit thread. Do you call the guy his legal name or do you call him Bambi? If the Bambi personality wins out gets a lot of power and then commits suicide, should you refer to him by his legal name or by Bambi when you speak about him?
I don’t want to keep defending this because you’re almost entirely right and as a trans person myself I just personally cringe at the idea of being certain that someone in distress was Actually Not Trans Because They Were Manipulated. that’s… really the extent of it. We won’t reach a resolution on this because it doesn’t matter, the key point is there was intense manipulation and a split personality was intentionally created by manipulation. Whether that person was truly trans underneath is unknowable and I am quite willing to admit the reason I’m cringing against refusing to acknowledge that, but it really is mostly about those besides the person in question, so … shrug. If they’d been a woman to start with it would still be just as bad.
I’ve turned my downvote into an upvote because −6 seems too low for just this. The fact that people’s self-expression can be manipulated does in fact make it ambiguous whether that occurred or whether there was real self-expression. some people really are bullied. it’s also extremely likely that a group of trans people collected people who seemed at a minimum naturally inclined to not be cis, so I am inclined to bet that this person really had some gender stuff going on. regardless, ziz destroyed them, and chris or maia, we must mourn the one known as pazek.
I would in fact bet that the sleep deprivation thing made them more inclined to transition when they did, but would personally roll to disbelieve that it was the only cause of transition. That’s really it.
Is there a missing “not” in the first sentence?
ETA: Or a missing “not only” in the first and an “also” in the second.
have you read Maia’s suicide note? Because it has a lot of details.
I’m not sure what you mean with their suicide notice. They wrote a post on their blog arguing for life being meaningless because all the memories being forgotten after death anyway. Do you mean that document?
I read that at the time it was posted and there was time between that document and the actual suicide. I got to know about the suicide itself a substantial amount of time later and got deeper information by talking to one of their roommates. The version of events that their roommate told me did not include Ziz. Later, I read Ziz account and assume that Ziz had no good reason to lie about a lot of the involved details as they don’t make Ziz look good.
If there’s a separate suicide note, I’d be happy to read it.
(re:linked document) I don’t think suicide note is a good name for that blog post as it was written some time before the actual suicide.
It also contains no details on the personality conflict.