One is that you are basically defenseless. Your society of ems looks completely benevolent. May I suggest that in reality humans possess very considerably capability for malice and evil? You are making the assumption that future societies will enjoy considerate civil liberties, be democratic, etc. -- I see no good reasons for this assumption.
On a trivial level consider someone like a slightly psychotic disgruntled ex. She wants to make your life hell—and sure, you can see that in her thoughts, she’s not hiding that. But you can’t hide from her either—she can fine-tune her application of pain to you by watching real-time feedback: she wants you to suffer and she can see precisely what makes you suffer more.
On a less trivial level, consider what peer pressure looks like in the society without the privacy of your own thoughts. What if that society, for example, turns out to be religious (like the current societies)? Are you ready to be part of a shunned minority?
You’re imagining a society which consists of people who look like the circle of your friends, just more of them. And sure, all your friends are kind and reasonable people, there isn’t much to fear from them. But that’s not the society you will get—go read some popular media, some tabloids for a bit and imagine inhabiting the same mind space with these people.
On a trivial level consider someone like a slightly psychotic disgruntled ex. She wants to make your life hell—and sure, you can see that in her thoughts, she’s not hiding that. But you can’t hide from her either
Sure.
In the real world, my psychotic disgruntled ex has the physical ability to stand outside my front door and sing Barry Manilow songs all day, has the physical ability to throw bags of flaming poop at my head, has the physical ability to blow my limbs off with a shotgun. In shminux’ telepath-world, they also have the ability to fine-tune their abuse based on an accurate telepathic perception of my reactions, so they’re able to get even nastier than that.
But the thing is, in the real world, my ex is not actually limited by their inability to fine-tune their abuse based on an accurate telepathic perception of my reactions. Long before they get to that point, we’ve collectively stepped in and done something about it.
So the question becomes, can we do anything about it in shminux’ telepath-world? E.g., can incorrigible flaming-poop-throwers be exiled or otherwise intervened with?
You seem to be assuming they can’t, but I don’t see why that should be true.
Perhaps the problem is scale? I would agree, for example, that if it turns out that basically everyone is an incorrigible flaming-poop-thrower to everyone else in the privacy of our own minds and the only reason we don’t notice in the real world is that we’re ignorant of each other’s true thoughts… well, sure, in that case the telepathic society would suck incorrigibly.
Interesting. I will have to think more about it. My immediate reaction is that many of the situations you describe will not have a chance to occur at all, but I don’t have a good argument at this point, beyond “everyone can see your malicious intentions”.
Most people who act evilly have their evil motives opaque even to themselves. The overwhelming majority of people think they are good and believe their motives are pure.
On a less trivial level, consider what peer pressure looks like in the society without the privacy of your own thoughts. What if that society, for example, turns out to be religious (like the current societies)? Are you ready to be part of a shunned minority?
I think about this a lot, but my expectations are radically different from yours. Peer pressure depends critically on maintaining the illusion of a uniform mainstream position. The awareness of just how much variance there actually is in real populations tends to destroy its effectiveness.
I expect a telepathic society to experience much less in the way of peer pressure than my current society, where 90% of the population can claim to believe X, even though they really don’t, because they see that 90% of their neighbors are claiming X and they don’t want to be singled out for defection.
But sure, if I’m wrong and the telepathic society turns out to be the kind of narrow-minded thoughtpolice scenario you have in mind, I will be surprised and regret my choice.
go read some popular media, some tabloids for a bit and imagine inhabiting the same mind space with these people.
It’s possible that the reason I don’t find this sort of reasoning compelling is that I’m just an unusually unsavory person, but there’s nothing I find in popular media that doesn’t resonate with some part of my own psyche, or that I expect doesn’t have its analogs in my friends’ minds.
Those parts aren’t dominant, and I don’t endorse them, but they’re certainly there and I’m aware of them.
So the idea that it would be some kind of novelty to share a mind with such awful thoughts strikes me as sort of odd. I already do, I always have, I always will.
Sure, some of the awful thoughts will be novel… just as some of the brilliant, kind, and lovely thoughts will be novel… but I doubt it will be as much as a full sigma out from where I already am. I’m not some kind of unsullied snowflake whose purity ought not be besmirched.
And honestly, though I have no real way of knowing for sure, I doubt I’m all that unusual in this regard. I’m with Solzhenitsyn here: “the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. ”
Several reasons.
One is that you are basically defenseless. Your society of ems looks completely benevolent. May I suggest that in reality humans possess very considerably capability for malice and evil? You are making the assumption that future societies will enjoy considerate civil liberties, be democratic, etc. -- I see no good reasons for this assumption.
On a trivial level consider someone like a slightly psychotic disgruntled ex. She wants to make your life hell—and sure, you can see that in her thoughts, she’s not hiding that. But you can’t hide from her either—she can fine-tune her application of pain to you by watching real-time feedback: she wants you to suffer and she can see precisely what makes you suffer more.
On a less trivial level, consider what peer pressure looks like in the society without the privacy of your own thoughts. What if that society, for example, turns out to be religious (like the current societies)? Are you ready to be part of a shunned minority?
You’re imagining a society which consists of people who look like the circle of your friends, just more of them. And sure, all your friends are kind and reasonable people, there isn’t much to fear from them. But that’s not the society you will get—go read some popular media, some tabloids for a bit and imagine inhabiting the same mind space with these people.
Sure.
In the real world, my psychotic disgruntled ex has the physical ability to stand outside my front door and sing Barry Manilow songs all day, has the physical ability to throw bags of flaming poop at my head, has the physical ability to blow my limbs off with a shotgun. In shminux’ telepath-world, they also have the ability to fine-tune their abuse based on an accurate telepathic perception of my reactions, so they’re able to get even nastier than that.
But the thing is, in the real world, my ex is not actually limited by their inability to fine-tune their abuse based on an accurate telepathic perception of my reactions. Long before they get to that point, we’ve collectively stepped in and done something about it.
So the question becomes, can we do anything about it in shminux’ telepath-world? E.g., can incorrigible flaming-poop-throwers be exiled or otherwise intervened with?
You seem to be assuming they can’t, but I don’t see why that should be true.
Perhaps the problem is scale? I would agree, for example, that if it turns out that basically everyone is an incorrigible flaming-poop-thrower to everyone else in the privacy of our own minds and the only reason we don’t notice in the real world is that we’re ignorant of each other’s true thoughts… well, sure, in that case the telepathic society would suck incorrigibly.
I don’t think that’s likely, though.
Interesting. I will have to think more about it. My immediate reaction is that many of the situations you describe will not have a chance to occur at all, but I don’t have a good argument at this point, beyond “everyone can see your malicious intentions”.
Most people who act evilly have their evil motives opaque even to themselves. The overwhelming majority of people think they are good and believe their motives are pure.
There might be a whole new class of conformance pressure due to being able to clearly perceive how everybody else sees you.
I think about this a lot, but my expectations are radically different from yours. Peer pressure depends critically on maintaining the illusion of a uniform mainstream position. The awareness of just how much variance there actually is in real populations tends to destroy its effectiveness.
I expect a telepathic society to experience much less in the way of peer pressure than my current society, where 90% of the population can claim to believe X, even though they really don’t, because they see that 90% of their neighbors are claiming X and they don’t want to be singled out for defection.
But sure, if I’m wrong and the telepathic society turns out to be the kind of narrow-minded thoughtpolice scenario you have in mind, I will be surprised and regret my choice.
It’s possible that the reason I don’t find this sort of reasoning compelling is that I’m just an unusually unsavory person, but there’s nothing I find in popular media that doesn’t resonate with some part of my own psyche, or that I expect doesn’t have its analogs in my friends’ minds.
Those parts aren’t dominant, and I don’t endorse them, but they’re certainly there and I’m aware of them.
So the idea that it would be some kind of novelty to share a mind with such awful thoughts strikes me as sort of odd. I already do, I always have, I always will.
Sure, some of the awful thoughts will be novel… just as some of the brilliant, kind, and lovely thoughts will be novel… but I doubt it will be as much as a full sigma out from where I already am. I’m not some kind of unsullied snowflake whose purity ought not be besmirched.
And honestly, though I have no real way of knowing for sure, I doubt I’m all that unusual in this regard. I’m with Solzhenitsyn here: “the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. ”