This actually came up for real on this site a few months ago. Not a literal ledge, but a blog post and comments. It didn’t work.
ETA: Sorry, depressing topic. I should have explained more. It came to the attention of LW that a former LW user had mentioned what might have been a suicide plan on his personal site. A lot of LessWrongers attempted to dissuade him. He apparently disclaimed any suicidal intentions and deleted the post, but I’m sorry to say it later became clear that he soon did, in fact, kill himself.
He apparently disclaimed any suicidal intentions and deleted the post, but I’m sorry to say it later became clear that he soon did, in fact, kill himself.
I noticed a similarity with my friend’s suicide—first step: “I am contemplating suicide for unclear reasons”, second step: “don’t worry, everything is perfectly ok now, honestly”, third step: funeral. (As opposed to a cry-for-attention suicide threat of another friend; first step: “I am going to kill myself because this happened to me, and I want everyone to know this”; second step: same as the first step, but the shocking value wears off; third step: “uhm, this was kind of stupid, let’s change the topic”.)
I don’t want to generalize too much from 2 examples, but now it seems to me that the “everything is ok now” part is a huge warning, even if it’s followed by some rationalization. Not sure why. Maybe it is a result of thinking: “I am so completely worthless, that I want all people to stop worrying about my coming death”. Or maybe it is an overreaction to some last hope, and the suicide is an overreaction to when the last hope fails. Problem is that wishful thinking on our part wants to believe that everything is OK when the suicidal person says so, but rationally any sudden improvement should be treated with high suspicion.
I don’t want to generalize too much from 2 examples, but now it seems to me that the “everything is ok now” part is a huge warning, even if it’s followed by some rationalization. Not sure why.
Consider: It’s much easier to commit suicide if the people around you aren’t on guard against you committing suicide.
“I am contemplating suicide for unclear reasons” was a gasp of the part of the person not yet committed to action of suicide; it puts people on guard, it gets them to help (interfere, from the view of the suicidal parts of the mind). If the person then decides to commit suicide, he’s got to set the guardians at ease, get them to cease interfering. Telling the lie that “everything is okay now” makes it easier to succeed at suicide.
But it may be many different causes for different people. For example is someone’s depression is biologically caused and they take some prescribed drugs, they may honestly report improvement… and then become overconfident and stop taking the drugs.
But it may be many different causes for different people.
Oh, of course. I speak from only my own mix of experience and imagination, not as a trained or experienced psychologist. The powerful emotions of my individual experience definitely bias me to a specific view which I probably overgeneralize, even when I’m conscious that I might be overgeneralizing.
cry-for-attention suicide threat of another friend; first step: “I am going to kill myself because this happened to me, and I want everyone to know this”; second step: same as the first step, but the shocking value wears off; third step: “uhm, this was kind of stupid, let’s change the topic”
That’s probably an accurate model, but ouch. What is one supposed to do when one is feeling absolutely awful, in need of help, and somewhat suicidal but one is aware one most likely won’t go through with it? Even recognizing that’s what’s going on hurts—“How dare I compare my puny problem I won’t even kill myself over to those of actual, important, real suicidal people? I’m just a whiny teenager, this is disgusting, I should kill mys- oh wait”. (Obviously, I’ve been there.) And cries for help less extreme that suicide threats… don’t actually get answered with much help, which may explain why such threats are so frequent.
And cries for help less extreme that suicide threats… don’t actually get answered with much help, which may explain why such threats are so frequent.
I think it is very useful to have at least one moderately wise person you can freely communicate with. But it can be difficult to find one, because in our society extended families are torn apart and teenagers have to spend most of their time in Matrix (a.k.a. school) among their equally unexperienced peers, with a few overburdened and burned out teachers. There are psychologists, of course, but to visit one is really bad for signalling. Thus a sick environment is created, where it is socially more acceptable to say “I will kill myself” than “I have some problem that I don’t know how to solve; may I have your attention for a few minutes, please?” :-(
I want to take the word “attention” out, shoot it, and hang it with its own bowels. Yes, someone to talk to is usually necessary. But what’s really hard to find is people who will actually help. Like, look up psychologists or cook you meals if you’re anorexic or take care of you while you’re chained to the wall weaning off heroin.
What is one supposed to do when one is feeling absolutely awful, in need of help, and somewhat suicidal but one is aware one most likely won’t go through with it?
In my experience, there are two pieces to this.
First, find friends who actually give a crap about me, who want me to be happy and fulfilled, who are willing to listen to me talk if I want to talk, who care what happens to me. (Professional therapists can also serve this role, if nobody else is available. That’s not to say it’s the only role they serve, merely to say that they can serve this role.) This is the most valuable piece; without it not much else works.
Second, simply describe my current state. For example: “I feel awful. I’ve been thinking about killing myself, and though I don’t expect I’ll ever actually do it, I suspect that the suicidal ideation is itself a bad sign. I don’t seem to enjoy anything, I’m either sad or indifferent most of the time, despite there not really being anything in particular to be sad about, and I can’t imagine it ever getting any better than this. I need help and I don’t know how to seek it out, and I’m afraid that even admitting to this will cause people to think poorly of me.”
I don’t want to generalize too much from 2 examples, but now it seems to me that the “everything is ok now” part is a huge warning, even if it’s followed by some rationalization. Not sure why. Maybe it is a result of thinking: “I am so completely worthless, that I want all people to stop worrying about my coming death”. Or maybe it is an overreaction to some last hope, and the suicide is an overreaction to when the last hope fails. Problem is that wishful thinking on our part wants to believe that everything is OK when the suicidal person says so, but rationally any sudden improvement should be treated with high suspicion.
In the case of the suicide risk for people on antidepressants it is said that when improvement begins the ‘overwhelming akrasia’ component declines, leaving the depressed individual with the ability to actually carry out goals. (Take this with a grain of salt. It’s a ‘just so’ story if ever I heard one. Testable to be sure, but not easily so with our level of technology.)
This actually came up for real on this site a few months ago. Not a literal ledge, but a blog post and comments. It didn’t work.
ETA: Sorry, depressing topic. I should have explained more. It came to the attention of LW that a former LW user had mentioned what might have been a suicide plan on his personal site. A lot of LessWrongers attempted to dissuade him. He apparently disclaimed any suicidal intentions and deleted the post, but I’m sorry to say it later became clear that he soon did, in fact, kill himself.
I noticed a similarity with my friend’s suicide—first step: “I am contemplating suicide for unclear reasons”, second step: “don’t worry, everything is perfectly ok now, honestly”, third step: funeral. (As opposed to a cry-for-attention suicide threat of another friend; first step: “I am going to kill myself because this happened to me, and I want everyone to know this”; second step: same as the first step, but the shocking value wears off; third step: “uhm, this was kind of stupid, let’s change the topic”.)
I don’t want to generalize too much from 2 examples, but now it seems to me that the “everything is ok now” part is a huge warning, even if it’s followed by some rationalization. Not sure why. Maybe it is a result of thinking: “I am so completely worthless, that I want all people to stop worrying about my coming death”. Or maybe it is an overreaction to some last hope, and the suicide is an overreaction to when the last hope fails. Problem is that wishful thinking on our part wants to believe that everything is OK when the suicidal person says so, but rationally any sudden improvement should be treated with high suspicion.
Consider: It’s much easier to commit suicide if the people around you aren’t on guard against you committing suicide.
“I am contemplating suicide for unclear reasons” was a gasp of the part of the person not yet committed to action of suicide; it puts people on guard, it gets them to help (interfere, from the view of the suicidal parts of the mind). If the person then decides to commit suicide, he’s got to set the guardians at ease, get them to cease interfering. Telling the lie that “everything is okay now” makes it easier to succeed at suicide.
Makes sense. :-(
But it may be many different causes for different people. For example is someone’s depression is biologically caused and they take some prescribed drugs, they may honestly report improvement… and then become overconfident and stop taking the drugs.
Oh, of course. I speak from only my own mix of experience and imagination, not as a trained or experienced psychologist. The powerful emotions of my individual experience definitely bias me to a specific view which I probably overgeneralize, even when I’m conscious that I might be overgeneralizing.
That’s probably an accurate model, but ouch. What is one supposed to do when one is feeling absolutely awful, in need of help, and somewhat suicidal but one is aware one most likely won’t go through with it? Even recognizing that’s what’s going on hurts—“How dare I compare my puny problem I won’t even kill myself over to those of actual, important, real suicidal people? I’m just a whiny teenager, this is disgusting, I should kill mys- oh wait”. (Obviously, I’ve been there.) And cries for help less extreme that suicide threats… don’t actually get answered with much help, which may explain why such threats are so frequent.
I think it is very useful to have at least one moderately wise person you can freely communicate with. But it can be difficult to find one, because in our society extended families are torn apart and teenagers have to spend most of their time in Matrix (a.k.a. school) among their equally unexperienced peers, with a few overburdened and burned out teachers. There are psychologists, of course, but to visit one is really bad for signalling. Thus a sick environment is created, where it is socially more acceptable to say “I will kill myself” than “I have some problem that I don’t know how to solve; may I have your attention for a few minutes, please?” :-(
I want to take the word “attention” out, shoot it, and hang it with its own bowels. Yes, someone to talk to is usually necessary. But what’s really hard to find is people who will actually help. Like, look up psychologists or cook you meals if you’re anorexic or take care of you while you’re chained to the wall weaning off heroin.
In my experience, there are two pieces to this.
First, find friends who actually give a crap about me, who want me to be happy and fulfilled, who are willing to listen to me talk if I want to talk, who care what happens to me. (Professional therapists can also serve this role, if nobody else is available. That’s not to say it’s the only role they serve, merely to say that they can serve this role.) This is the most valuable piece; without it not much else works.
Second, simply describe my current state. For example: “I feel awful. I’ve been thinking about killing myself, and though I don’t expect I’ll ever actually do it, I suspect that the suicidal ideation is itself a bad sign. I don’t seem to enjoy anything, I’m either sad or indifferent most of the time, despite there not really being anything in particular to be sad about, and I can’t imagine it ever getting any better than this. I need help and I don’t know how to seek it out, and I’m afraid that even admitting to this will cause people to think poorly of me.”
Of course, it’s all easier said than done.
Another angle—being given advice that doesn’t work can be really wearing.
If you’re dealing with people who are apparently committed to lifting your mood, and your mood doesn’t lift, now what?
What’s more, they may well be talking as though if you were a normal person, their methods would work.
Note: I haven’t been in this situation, I’m extrapolating from less drastic problems.
In the case of the suicide risk for people on antidepressants it is said that when improvement begins the ‘overwhelming akrasia’ component declines, leaving the depressed individual with the ability to actually carry out goals. (Take this with a grain of salt. It’s a ‘just so’ story if ever I heard one. Testable to be sure, but not easily so with our level of technology.)