Where is this coming from? As far as I can tell “Suicidal people aren’t rational” is mostly meme. Suicidal people aren’t operating at anywhere near full capacity is much closer. Of the suicidal folks I’ve known they’ve all been less sensitive/more tired rather than emotional. I’ll add that it’s a harmful meme because it stops people seeking help because they don’t think anyone will take them seriously (which is a pretty accurate generalisation.)
It’s coming from the word of psychologists who’ve made depression the focus of their study, from my own experience with suicidal contemplations, and that of all the suicidal people I’ve dealt with.
Suicidal people are not necessarily histrionic; more often (if they’re legitimately suicidal) they are, as you said, numb, and have a muted affect. But that doesn’t mean that their rationality isn’t being affected. I know a person who has spiraled deeper and deeper into depression since I first met her, and been able to see her go from a particularly sharp witted person with whom I could discuss pretty much anything to someone who, while not unintelligent, has little energy to make use of her mental faculties and makes consistently irrational decisions.
It’s important to take suicidal people seriously, but also to keep in mind that they’re in a particularly vulnerable state, and “taking someone seriously” has very different connotations outside the LW social cluster, where we have social norms that encourage active argument, don’t frame correcting others as a status challenge, etc. If a person who’s contemplating suicide is talking to you, listen. People who really listen to what you have to say, who’re completely receptive and aren’t impatiently waiting for a convenient place where they can turn the conversation the way they want are in much shorter supply than people who’ll talk at you, particularly when you’re socially isolated as many suicidal people are. “Listen, be supportive, don’t argue” is not an incitement not to take someone seriously. There should be no point where you feel like you’re following a bad script, because you should be listening and responding in as sincere a way as you can without being confrontational.
What suicidal people are usually in need of is a sympathetic, supportive social connection, not someone who’ll talk at or argue with them. This is where a lot of people fail in dealing with suicidal people; they see a “protocol wall” as you put it, usually panic, and try and run through a script of things they’re “supposed” to say, and so the suicidal person doesn’t feel like they’ve managed to effectively communicate, they’ve just been talked at.
“has little energy to make use of her mental faculties and makes consistently irrational decisions.”
Irrational is really the wrong word for decisions that are poorly made because one lacks the energy to make them. And even worse for decisions that look poorly made because all the options which would be rational for someone with normal energy are impossible or vastly more costly (to the point where they are no longer rational) for someone without.
I assume these are the types of decisions you’re talking about.
Maybe “listen, be supportive, don’t argue” isn’t literally an incitement to not take someone seriously but lots of people read that as “handle with care: fragile.”
“This is where a lot of people fail in dealing with suicidal people; they see a “protocol wall” as you put it, usually panic, and try and run through a script of things they’re “supposed” to say, and so the suicidal person doesn’t feel like they’ve managed to effectively communicate, they’ve just been talked at.”
The script of stuff they’re “supposed” to say and do is what I mean by protocol wall.
It’s coming from the word of psychologists who’ve made depression the focus of their study, from my own experience with suicidal contemplations, and that of all the suicidal people I’ve dealt with.
Suicidal people are not necessarily histrionic; more often (if they’re legitimately suicidal) they are, as you said, numb, and have a muted affect. But that doesn’t mean that their rationality isn’t being affected. I know a person who has spiraled deeper and deeper into depression since I first met her, and been able to see her go from a particularly sharp witted person with whom I could discuss pretty much anything to someone who, while not unintelligent, has little energy to make use of her mental faculties and makes consistently irrational decisions.
It’s important to take suicidal people seriously, but also to keep in mind that they’re in a particularly vulnerable state, and “taking someone seriously” has very different connotations outside the LW social cluster, where we have social norms that encourage active argument, don’t frame correcting others as a status challenge, etc. If a person who’s contemplating suicide is talking to you, listen. People who really listen to what you have to say, who’re completely receptive and aren’t impatiently waiting for a convenient place where they can turn the conversation the way they want are in much shorter supply than people who’ll talk at you, particularly when you’re socially isolated as many suicidal people are. “Listen, be supportive, don’t argue” is not an incitement not to take someone seriously. There should be no point where you feel like you’re following a bad script, because you should be listening and responding in as sincere a way as you can without being confrontational.
What suicidal people are usually in need of is a sympathetic, supportive social connection, not someone who’ll talk at or argue with them. This is where a lot of people fail in dealing with suicidal people; they see a “protocol wall” as you put it, usually panic, and try and run through a script of things they’re “supposed” to say, and so the suicidal person doesn’t feel like they’ve managed to effectively communicate, they’ve just been talked at.
“has little energy to make use of her mental faculties and makes consistently irrational decisions.”
Irrational is really the wrong word for decisions that are poorly made because one lacks the energy to make them. And even worse for decisions that look poorly made because all the options which would be rational for someone with normal energy are impossible or vastly more costly (to the point where they are no longer rational) for someone without.
I assume these are the types of decisions you’re talking about.
Maybe “listen, be supportive, don’t argue” isn’t literally an incitement to not take someone seriously but lots of people read that as “handle with care: fragile.”
“This is where a lot of people fail in dealing with suicidal people; they see a “protocol wall” as you put it, usually panic, and try and run through a script of things they’re “supposed” to say, and so the suicidal person doesn’t feel like they’ve managed to effectively communicate, they’ve just been talked at.”
The script of stuff they’re “supposed” to say and do is what I mean by protocol wall.