Thoughts on punching nazis? I can’t really wrap my head around why there are so many people who think it’s 100% ok to punch nazis. Not sure if discussion about this has happened elsewhere (if so please direct me!) . For the purposes of this discussion let’s ignore whether or not the alt-right counts as Nazism and speak only about a hypothetical Nazi ideological group.
I understand to some extent the argument that reasonable discussion with Nazis is almost certainly futile and that they are perhaps a danger to others, however my main concerns with punching Nazis are:
1) It promotes violence as an acceptable means of dealing with disagreement
2) It doesn’t accomplish much (though the hypothetical Nazi in question has said that he is more afraid of going outside, so I suppose it’s accomplished at least fear which may be a pro or con depending on your point of view, besides that however I don’t think it’s hindered Nazis very much and has only worsened the image of the anti-Nazis)
I think a lot of people’s intuitive moral framework relies on the idea of the Outlaw. Traditionally an Outlaw is someone who has zero rights or legal protection accorded them by society: it’s legal to steal from them, beat them, or kill them. This was used as punishment in a variety of older societies, but has mostly fallen out of favor. However, a lot of people still seem to think of transgressors as moral non-patients, and are happy to see them receive any amount of punishment. Similar to how people think criminals deserve to be raped in prison, people think Nazis deserve whatever happens to them. This is counter to our judicial system and the happy functioning of civilization, but I don’t think most people are susceptible to reasoned arguments when they’re in a heightened emotional state.
Step 1: Make a good argument for why punching Nazis is okay. Step 2: Call everyone you don’t like a Nazi. Step 3: Keep punching.
The steelman version of “punching Nazis is okay” is that one should not bring verbal arguments into a punching fight. That is, we assume that the Nazis are there to punch you, and if you prepare for verbal fight, well, don’t expect to return home unharmed.
But this makes an assumption about your opponent, and typically, mindkilled people make a lot of wrong assumptions, especially about their opponents.
The steelman version of “punching Nazis is okay” is that one should not bring verbal arguments into a punching fight. That is, we assume that the Nazis are there to punch you, and if you prepare for verbal fight, well, don’t expect to return home unharmed.
But that guy didn’t just “not bring verbal arguments into a punching fight”, he brought a punch into a verbal argument.
I am not familiar with the specific case, my answer was meant in general.
EDIT: I think it was historically the situation that when Nazis (the real ones, i.e. the NSDAP Nazis, not the people who disagree with me “Nazis”) were losing a political debate, they often changed the rules of the game, and attacked their opponents physically (“pigeon chess”). Which is why everyone else developed a rule “if Nazis invite you to a debate, you don’t participate (or you come ready to throw punches, if necessary)”. No idea whether this is a fact or a myth.
I think that people punching other people is the default behavior, and it takes conscious effort to control yourself when you are angry at someone. E.g. drunk people who lost their inhibitions often get involved in fights. And people who are angry rejoice at any opportunity to let their inner animal out, feel the rush of adrenaline that comes with losing your inhibitions and not have to think about consequences or social condemnation.
2) It doesn’t accomplish much (though the hypothetical Nazi in question has said that he is more afraid of going outside, so I suppose it’s accomplished at least fear which may be a pro or con depending on your point of view, besides that however I don’t think it’s hindered Nazis very much and has only worsened the image of the anti-Nazis)
People like the strong and dislike the weak. If Nazis got punched all the time, they would be perceived as weak and nobody would join them. Even if they didn’t like the punching, most likely they would simply be a bystanders.
drunk people who lost their inhibitions often get involved in fights
Even here there may be a cultural element. I notice in Japan when I was there, men would be totally drunk without a hint of violence. In some cultures being drunk provides permission to be violent, similar perhaps to the way that men are ‘permitted’ to hug one another after scoring a goal on the playing field.
Thoughts on punching nazis? I can’t really wrap my head around why there are so many people who think it’s 100% ok to punch nazis. Not sure if discussion about this has happened elsewhere (if so please direct me!) . For the purposes of this discussion let’s ignore whether or not the alt-right counts as Nazism and speak only about a hypothetical Nazi ideological group.
I understand to some extent the argument that reasonable discussion with Nazis is almost certainly futile and that they are perhaps a danger to others, however my main concerns with punching Nazis are: 1) It promotes violence as an acceptable means of dealing with disagreement 2) It doesn’t accomplish much (though the hypothetical Nazi in question has said that he is more afraid of going outside, so I suppose it’s accomplished at least fear which may be a pro or con depending on your point of view, besides that however I don’t think it’s hindered Nazis very much and has only worsened the image of the anti-Nazis)
I think a lot of people’s intuitive moral framework relies on the idea of the Outlaw. Traditionally an Outlaw is someone who has zero rights or legal protection accorded them by society: it’s legal to steal from them, beat them, or kill them. This was used as punishment in a variety of older societies, but has mostly fallen out of favor. However, a lot of people still seem to think of transgressors as moral non-patients, and are happy to see them receive any amount of punishment. Similar to how people think criminals deserve to be raped in prison, people think Nazis deserve whatever happens to them. This is counter to our judicial system and the happy functioning of civilization, but I don’t think most people are susceptible to reasoned arguments when they’re in a heightened emotional state.
Step 1: Make a good argument for why punching Nazis is okay.
Step 2: Call everyone you don’t like a Nazi.
Step 3: Keep punching.
The steelman version of “punching Nazis is okay” is that one should not bring verbal arguments into a punching fight. That is, we assume that the Nazis are there to punch you, and if you prepare for verbal fight, well, don’t expect to return home unharmed.
But this makes an assumption about your opponent, and typically, mindkilled people make a lot of wrong assumptions, especially about their opponents.
But that guy didn’t just “not bring verbal arguments into a punching fight”, he brought a punch into a verbal argument.
I am not familiar with the specific case, my answer was meant in general.
EDIT: I think it was historically the situation that when Nazis (the real ones, i.e. the NSDAP Nazis, not the people who disagree with me “Nazis”) were losing a political debate, they often changed the rules of the game, and attacked their opponents physically (“pigeon chess”). Which is why everyone else developed a rule “if Nazis invite you to a debate, you don’t participate (or you come ready to throw punches, if necessary)”. No idea whether this is a fact or a myth.
https://www.google.com/search?q=site:twitter.com+is+it+ok+to+punch+nazis
I think that people punching other people is the default behavior, and it takes conscious effort to control yourself when you are angry at someone. E.g. drunk people who lost their inhibitions often get involved in fights. And people who are angry rejoice at any opportunity to let their inner animal out, feel the rush of adrenaline that comes with losing your inhibitions and not have to think about consequences or social condemnation.
People like the strong and dislike the weak. If Nazis got punched all the time, they would be perceived as weak and nobody would join them. Even if they didn’t like the punching, most likely they would simply be a bystanders.
Even here there may be a cultural element. I notice in Japan when I was there, men would be totally drunk without a hint of violence. In some cultures being drunk provides permission to be violent, similar perhaps to the way that men are ‘permitted’ to hug one another after scoring a goal on the playing field.
Two thousand years ago, some guy in the Roman Empire got nailed to a piece of wood and left to die. How did that turn out?
Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi
FWIW, Reason magazine condemned the punching.