My general prescription for this sort of situation [...] is: proceed on the working assumption that the other guy isn’t too stupid/blinkered/crazy/whatever to appreciate your points, and get on with it; or, if you can’t honestly give that assumption high enough probability to make it worth trying, drop the discussion altogether.
All of the options you explicitly list imply disrespect. If I saw all other options as implying disrespect as well, I would agree that “if you can’t honestly give that assumption high enough probability to make it worth trying, [it’s best to] drop the discussion altogether”.
However, I see it as possible to have both mutual respect and predictably counterproductive object level discussion. Because of this, I see potential for fruitful avenues other than “plow on the object level and hope it works out, or bail”. I have had many conversations with people whom I respect (and who by all means seem to feel respected by me) where we have done this to good results—and I’ve been on the other side too, again, without feeling like I was being disrespected.
Your responses have all been consistent with acting like I must be framing you as stupid/blinkered/crazy/otherwise-unworthy-of-respect if I don’t think object level discussion is the best next step. Is there a reason you haven’t addressed the possibility that I’m being sincere and that my disinterest in “just explaining my view” at this point isn’t predicated on me concluding that you’re stupid/blinkered/crazy/otherwise-unworthy-of-respect? Even to say that you hear me but conclude that I must be lying/crazy since that’s obviously too unlikely to be worth considering?
The same place as I’ve been asking you to start for a while: [...] clarify those parts of your position for me. Adopt the working assumption that I’m not crazy, evil or stupid but that I’ve missed or misunderstood something, and Sure, it might not work: I might just be too obtuse to get it; in that case that fact will become apparent (at least to you) and you can stop wasting your time.
The thing is, that does presuppose that my belief that “in this case, as with many others with large inferential distance, trying to simply clarify my position will result in more misunderstanding than understanding, on expectation, and therefore is not a good idea—even if the other person isn’t stupid/blinkered/crazy/otherwise-undeserving-of-respect” is wrong. Er.. unless you’re saying “sure, you might be right, and maybe it could work your way and couldn’t work my way, but I’m still unwilling to take that seriously enough to even consider doing things your way. My way or it ain’t happenin’.”
If it’s the latter case, and if, as you seem to imply, this is a general rule you live by, I’m not sure what your plan is for dealing with the possibility of object level blind spots—but I guess I don’t have to. Either way, it’s a fair response here, if that’s the decision you want to make—we can agree to disagree here too.
Anyway, if you’re writing all these words because you actually want to know how the heck I see it, then I’ll see what I can do. It might take a while because I expect it to take a decent amount of work and probably end up long, but I promise I will work at it. If, on the other hand, you’re just trying to do an extremely thorough job at making it clear that you’re not closed to my arguments, then I’d be happy to leave it as “you’re unwilling to consider doing things my way”+”I’m unwilling to do things your way until we can agree that your way is the better choice”, if that is indeed a fair description of your stance.
(Sorta separately, I’m sure I’d have a bunch of questions on how you see things, if you’d have any interest in explaining your perspective)
All the options you explicitly list imply disrespect
Well, the one I’m actually proposing doesn’t, but I guess you mean the others do. I’m not sure they exactly do, though I certainly didn’t make any effort to frame them in tactfully respect-maximizing terms; in any case, it’s certainly not far off to say they all imply disrespect. I agree that there are situations in which you can’t explain something without preparation without any disrespect to the other guy being called for; but that’s because what happened was
jimmy says some things
gjm response
jimmy starts saying things like “Before engaging with why you think my argument is wrong, I want to have some indication that you actually understand what my argument is, that’s all, and I haven’t seen it.”
rather than, say,
jimmy says “so I have a rather complicated and subtle argument to make, so I’m going to have to begin with some preliminaries*.
When what happens is that you begin by making your argument and then start saying: nope, you didn’t understand it—and when your reaction to a good-faith attempt at dealing with the alleged misunderstanding is anything other than “oh, OK, let me try to explain more clearly”—I think it does imply something like disrespect; at least, as much like disrespect as those options I listed above. Because what you’re saying is: you had something to say that you thought was appropriate for your audience, and not the sort of thing that needed advance warning that it was extra-subtle; but now you’ve found that I don’t understand it and (you at least suspect) I’m not likely to understand it even if you explain it.
That is, it means that something about me renders me unlikely—even when this is locally the sole goal of the discussion, and I have made it clear that I am prepared to go to substantial lengths to seem mutual understanding—to be able to understand this thing that you want to say, and that you earlier thought was a reasonable thing to say without laying a load of preparatory groundwork.
Is there a reason you haven’t addressed the possibility that [...] my disinterest [...] isn’t predicated on me concluding that you’re stupid/blinkered/crazy/otherwise-unworthy-of-respect?
See above for why I haven’t considered it likely; the reason I haven’t (given that) addressed it is that there’s never time to address everything.
If there is a specific hypothesis in this class that you would like us to entertain, perhaps you should consider saying what it is.
The thing is, that does presuppose that my belief that [...] is wrong.
No, it presupposes that it could be wrong. (I would say it carries less presumption that it’s wrong than your last several comments in this thread carry presumption that it’s right.) The idea is: It could be wrong, in which case giving it a go will bring immediate benefit; it could be wrong but we could be (mutually) reasonable enough to see that it’s right when we give it a go and that doesn’t work, in which case giving it a go will get us past the meta-level stuff about whether I’m likely to be unable to understand. Or, of course, it could go the other way.
I’m not sure what your plan is for dealing with the possibility of object-level blind spots
When one is suspected, look at it up close and see whether it really is one. Which, y’know, is what I’m suggesting here.
if you’re writing all these words because you actually want to know how the heck I see it [...] I expect it to take a decent amount of work
What I was hoping to know, in the first instance, is what I have allegedly misunderstood in what you wrote before. You know, where you said things of the form “your description doesn’t even contain my actual reason for saying X”—which I took, for reasons that still look solid to me, to indicate that you had already given your actual reason.
If the only way for you to explain all my serious misunderstandings of what you wrote is for you to write an effortful lengthy essay about your general view … well, I expect it would be interesting. But on the face of it that seems like more effort than it should actually take. And if the reason why it should take all that effort is that, in essence, I have (at least in your opinion) understood so little of your position that there’s no point trying to correct me rather than trying again from scratch at much greater length then I honestly don’t know why you’re still in this discussion.
I’m sure I’d have a bunch of questions on how you see things, if you’d have any interest in explaining your perspective
I am happy to answer questions. I’ve had it pretty much up to here (you’ll have to imagine a suitable gesture) with meta-level discussion about what either of us may or may not be capable of understanding, though, so if the questions you want to ask are about what you think of me or what I think of you or what I think you think I think you think I am capable of understanding, then let’s give that a miss.
rather than, say,
jimmy says “so I have a rather complicated and subtle argument to make, so I’m going to have to begin with some preliminaries*.
I suppose I could have said “so I have a rather complicated and subtle argument to make. I would have to begin with some preliminaries and it would end up being kinda long and take a lot of work, so I’m not sure it’s worth it unless you really want to hear it”, and in a lot of ways I expect that would have gone better. I probably will end up doing this next time.
However in a couple key ways, it wouldn’t have, which is why I didn’t take that approach this time. And that itself is a complicated and subtle argument to make.
EDIT: I should clarify. I don’t necessarily think I made the right choice here, and it is something I’m still thinking about. However, it was an explicit choice and I had reasons.
When what happens is that you begin by making your argument and then start saying: nope, you didn’t understand it—and when your reaction to a good-faith attempt at dealing with the alleged misunderstanding is anything other than “oh, OK, let me try to explain more clearly”—I think it does imply something like disrespect; at least, as much like disrespect as those options I listed above.
Right, and I think this is our fundamental disagreement right here. I don’t think it implies any disrespect at all, but I’m happy to leave it here if you want.
Because what you’re saying is: [...] That is, it means that something about me renders me unlikely [...] to be able to understand this thing that you want to say, and that you earlier thought was a reasonable thing to say without laying a load of preparatory groundwork.
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think arguments with subtle backing always need that warning, nor do they always need to be intended to be fully understood in order to be worth saying. This means that “I can’t give you an explanation you’ll understand without a ton of work” doesn’t single you out nearly as much as you’d otherwise think.
I can get into this if you’d like, but it’d just be more meta shit, and at this point my solution is starting to converge with yours: “do the damn write up or shut up, jimmy”
See above for why I haven’t considered it likely; the reason I haven’t (given that) addressed it is that there’s never time to address everything.
I agree that you can’t address everything (nor have I), but this one stands out as the one big one I keep getting back to—and one where if you addressed it, this whole thing would resolve pretty much right away.
It seems like now that you have, we’re probably gonna end up at something more or less along the lines of “we disagree whether “mutual respect” and “knowably unable to progress on the object level” go together to a non-negligable amount, at least as it applies here, and gjm is uninterested in resolving this disagreement”. That’s an acceptable ending for me, so long as you know that it is a genuine belief of mine and that I’m not just trying to weasel around denying that I’ve been showing disrespect and shit.
No, it presupposes that it could be wrong.
I thought I addressed that possibility with the “err, or this” bit.
When one is suspected, look at it up close and see whether it really is one. Which, y’know, is what I’m suggesting here.
I was talking about the ones where that won’t work, which I see as a real thing though you might not.
If the only way for you to explain all my serious misunderstandings of what you wrote is for you to write an effortful lengthy essay about your general view … well, I expect it would be interesting.
If I ever end up writing it up, I’ll let you know.
But on the face of it that seems like more effort than it should actually take. And if the reason why it should take all that effort is that, in essence, I have (at least in your opinion) understood so little of your position that there’s no point trying to correct me rather than trying again from scratch at much greater length then I honestly don’t know why you’re still in this discussion.
:)
That’d probably have to be a part of the write up, as it calls on all the same concepts
All of the options you explicitly list imply disrespect. If I saw all other options as implying disrespect as well, I would agree that “if you can’t honestly give that assumption high enough probability to make it worth trying, [it’s best to] drop the discussion altogether”.
However, I see it as possible to have both mutual respect and predictably counterproductive object level discussion. Because of this, I see potential for fruitful avenues other than “plow on the object level and hope it works out, or bail”. I have had many conversations with people whom I respect (and who by all means seem to feel respected by me) where we have done this to good results—and I’ve been on the other side too, again, without feeling like I was being disrespected.
Your responses have all been consistent with acting like I must be framing you as stupid/blinkered/crazy/otherwise-unworthy-of-respect if I don’t think object level discussion is the best next step. Is there a reason you haven’t addressed the possibility that I’m being sincere and that my disinterest in “just explaining my view” at this point isn’t predicated on me concluding that you’re stupid/blinkered/crazy/otherwise-unworthy-of-respect? Even to say that you hear me but conclude that I must be lying/crazy since that’s obviously too unlikely to be worth considering?
The thing is, that does presuppose that my belief that “in this case, as with many others with large inferential distance, trying to simply clarify my position will result in more misunderstanding than understanding, on expectation, and therefore is not a good idea—even if the other person isn’t stupid/blinkered/crazy/otherwise-undeserving-of-respect” is wrong. Er.. unless you’re saying “sure, you might be right, and maybe it could work your way and couldn’t work my way, but I’m still unwilling to take that seriously enough to even consider doing things your way. My way or it ain’t happenin’.”
If it’s the latter case, and if, as you seem to imply, this is a general rule you live by, I’m not sure what your plan is for dealing with the possibility of object level blind spots—but I guess I don’t have to. Either way, it’s a fair response here, if that’s the decision you want to make—we can agree to disagree here too.
Anyway, if you’re writing all these words because you actually want to know how the heck I see it, then I’ll see what I can do. It might take a while because I expect it to take a decent amount of work and probably end up long, but I promise I will work at it. If, on the other hand, you’re just trying to do an extremely thorough job at making it clear that you’re not closed to my arguments, then I’d be happy to leave it as “you’re unwilling to consider doing things my way”+”I’m unwilling to do things your way until we can agree that your way is the better choice”, if that is indeed a fair description of your stance.
(Sorta separately, I’m sure I’d have a bunch of questions on how you see things, if you’d have any interest in explaining your perspective)
Well, the one I’m actually proposing doesn’t, but I guess you mean the others do. I’m not sure they exactly do, though I certainly didn’t make any effort to frame them in tactfully respect-maximizing terms; in any case, it’s certainly not far off to say they all imply disrespect. I agree that there are situations in which you can’t explain something without preparation without any disrespect to the other guy being called for; but that’s because what happened was
jimmy says some things
gjm response
jimmy starts saying things like “Before engaging with why you think my argument is wrong, I want to have some indication that you actually understand what my argument is, that’s all, and I haven’t seen it.”
rather than, say,
jimmy says “so I have a rather complicated and subtle argument to make, so I’m going to have to begin with some preliminaries*.
When what happens is that you begin by making your argument and then start saying: nope, you didn’t understand it—and when your reaction to a good-faith attempt at dealing with the alleged misunderstanding is anything other than “oh, OK, let me try to explain more clearly”—I think it does imply something like disrespect; at least, as much like disrespect as those options I listed above. Because what you’re saying is: you had something to say that you thought was appropriate for your audience, and not the sort of thing that needed advance warning that it was extra-subtle; but now you’ve found that I don’t understand it and (you at least suspect) I’m not likely to understand it even if you explain it.
That is, it means that something about me renders me unlikely—even when this is locally the sole goal of the discussion, and I have made it clear that I am prepared to go to substantial lengths to seem mutual understanding—to be able to understand this thing that you want to say, and that you earlier thought was a reasonable thing to say without laying a load of preparatory groundwork.
See above for why I haven’t considered it likely; the reason I haven’t (given that) addressed it is that there’s never time to address everything.
If there is a specific hypothesis in this class that you would like us to entertain, perhaps you should consider saying what it is.
No, it presupposes that it could be wrong. (I would say it carries less presumption that it’s wrong than your last several comments in this thread carry presumption that it’s right.) The idea is: It could be wrong, in which case giving it a go will bring immediate benefit; it could be wrong but we could be (mutually) reasonable enough to see that it’s right when we give it a go and that doesn’t work, in which case giving it a go will get us past the meta-level stuff about whether I’m likely to be unable to understand. Or, of course, it could go the other way.
When one is suspected, look at it up close and see whether it really is one. Which, y’know, is what I’m suggesting here.
What I was hoping to know, in the first instance, is what I have allegedly misunderstood in what you wrote before. You know, where you said things of the form “your description doesn’t even contain my actual reason for saying X”—which I took, for reasons that still look solid to me, to indicate that you had already given your actual reason.
If the only way for you to explain all my serious misunderstandings of what you wrote is for you to write an effortful lengthy essay about your general view … well, I expect it would be interesting. But on the face of it that seems like more effort than it should actually take. And if the reason why it should take all that effort is that, in essence, I have (at least in your opinion) understood so little of your position that there’s no point trying to correct me rather than trying again from scratch at much greater length then I honestly don’t know why you’re still in this discussion.
I am happy to answer questions. I’ve had it pretty much up to here (you’ll have to imagine a suitable gesture) with meta-level discussion about what either of us may or may not be capable of understanding, though, so if the questions you want to ask are about what you think of me or what I think of you or what I think you think I think you think I am capable of understanding, then let’s give that a miss.
I suppose I could have said “so I have a rather complicated and subtle argument to make. I would have to begin with some preliminaries and it would end up being kinda long and take a lot of work, so I’m not sure it’s worth it unless you really want to hear it”, and in a lot of ways I expect that would have gone better. I probably will end up doing this next time.
However in a couple key ways, it wouldn’t have, which is why I didn’t take that approach this time. And that itself is a complicated and subtle argument to make.
EDIT: I should clarify. I don’t necessarily think I made the right choice here, and it is something I’m still thinking about. However, it was an explicit choice and I had reasons.
Right, and I think this is our fundamental disagreement right here. I don’t think it implies any disrespect at all, but I’m happy to leave it here if you want.
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think arguments with subtle backing always need that warning, nor do they always need to be intended to be fully understood in order to be worth saying. This means that “I can’t give you an explanation you’ll understand without a ton of work” doesn’t single you out nearly as much as you’d otherwise think.
I can get into this if you’d like, but it’d just be more meta shit, and at this point my solution is starting to converge with yours: “do the damn write up or shut up, jimmy”
I agree that you can’t address everything (nor have I), but this one stands out as the one big one I keep getting back to—and one where if you addressed it, this whole thing would resolve pretty much right away.
It seems like now that you have, we’re probably gonna end up at something more or less along the lines of “we disagree whether “mutual respect” and “knowably unable to progress on the object level” go together to a non-negligable amount, at least as it applies here, and gjm is uninterested in resolving this disagreement”. That’s an acceptable ending for me, so long as you know that it is a genuine belief of mine and that I’m not just trying to weasel around denying that I’ve been showing disrespect and shit.
I thought I addressed that possibility with the “err, or this” bit.
I was talking about the ones where that won’t work, which I see as a real thing though you might not.
If I ever end up writing it up, I’ll let you know.
:)
That’d probably have to be a part of the write up, as it calls on all the same concepts