What I dislike most about the idea is that it gives some sort of official collective endorsement to external websites. One thing I like about LW is that except for the institutions that historically gave rise to it (OB and SIAI), it has no official doctrine and official endorsements. There are issues of broad consensus, but they are never officially presented as such. Thus, even if I have some disagreements with the majority on these issues, I can always voice my arguments without the unpleasant feeling that I’m invading the forum as an outsider trying to pick arguments over matters of consensus. (Which would constitute borderline trolling even if I’m right.)
Now, if there is a list of officially LW-endorsed websites, and I think some of them are bad and I don’t want to endorse them by any means, raising such concerns would mean picking fruitless and frustrating arguments with the majority. And frankly, I think it is quite plausible that some websites hit enough “applause lights” that they might find themselves on the LW endorsement list, even though their intellectual standards leave much to be desired.
If individual LW members wish to promote external websites, I’m all for it. They can post links in discussions, and by all means allow them to post links in their profiles more conspicuously and prominently than now, not just to their own websites but also to a list of favorite websites. But please don’t insist on an official list of collectively endorsed links.
You’ve articulated some of the problems of a blogroll well. Perhaps the blogroll idea could be evolved into a concept that better fits the needs of this community, while retaining its core value and simplicity:
1) Along side a link could be its controversy level, based on the votes for and against the link. By making the controversy explicit, the link can no longer be seen as a straight-up endorsement.
2) Along side a link could be its ranking based on say only the top 50 users. This would let people explicitly see what the majority vs. the “elite rationalists” thought—an interesting barometer of community rationality.
3) Split the “blogroll” in two—all-time most votes vs. most votes in the last week/month. This would alleviate the problem of staleness that Nancy pointed out. This is also nice because the links could be for not just websites, but any interesting new article.
4) Allow discussion of any link. Comments could warn users of applause lights etc. This is perhaps why the current voting system works well for choosing top posts, despite the problems you point out with majority opinion. A poor post/link can never get past the gauntlet of critical comments.
You could generalize this to the point that ordinary posts essentially become a special case of an “internal link”. Anyway, enough about a technical proposal—at this point I’m reluctant to push any harder on this. An impression I have of Less Wrong is that it’s somewhat of a walled garden (albeit a beautiful one!) and that such changes would open it up a little, while maintaining its integrity. The resistance people have seems to be rooted in this—a fear of in any way endorsing “inferior intellectual standards”. What we should instead be fearful of is not doing everything we can to raise the sanity waterline.
2) Along side a link could be its ranking based on say only the top 50 users. This would let people explicitly see what the majority vs. the “elite rationalists” thought—an interesting barometer of community rationality.
I wouldn’t do this. The top 50 users by karma score are more likely to be members who make a lot of comments than “elite rationalists”.
The controversy meter and using recent votes are good ideas (I wouldn’t split it, use only the recent votes).
You feel a good bit more strongly about this than I do. I would be inclined to look for a mild recommendation to head the blogroll—“possibly of interest” or “frequently rationalist” or somesuch.
However, your arguments remind me of another reason not to have a blogroll—they generally don’t get maintained, which means that they’re likely to include discontinued and inactive blogs.
This strikes me as the most cultish-sounding thing I’ve seen here—more so, say, than the boot camp.
This may be unreasonable on my part since I don’t have specific blogs in mind, but really—in the huge universe of blogs, no others are rationalist enough?
We couldn’t even settle on science and math blogs which would be of interest?
I dunno Nancy. I mean you start off innocently clicking on a link to a math blog. Next minute you’re following these hyperlinks and soon you find yourself getting sucked into a quantum healing website. I’m still trying to get a refund on these crystals I ended up buying. Let’s face it. These seemingly harmless websites with unrigorous intellectual standards are really gateway drugs to hard-core irrationality. So I have a new feature request: every time someone clicks on an external link from Less Wrong, a piece of Javascript pops up with the message: “You are very probably about to enter an irrational area of the internet. Are you sure you want to continue?” If you have less than 100000 karma points, clicking yes simply redirects you the sequences.
What I dislike most about the idea is that it gives some sort of official collective endorsement to external websites. One thing I like about LW is that except for the institutions that historically gave rise to it (OB and SIAI), it has no official doctrine and official endorsements. There are issues of broad consensus, but they are never officially presented as such. Thus, even if I have some disagreements with the majority on these issues, I can always voice my arguments without the unpleasant feeling that I’m invading the forum as an outsider trying to pick arguments over matters of consensus. (Which would constitute borderline trolling even if I’m right.)
Now, if there is a list of officially LW-endorsed websites, and I think some of them are bad and I don’t want to endorse them by any means, raising such concerns would mean picking fruitless and frustrating arguments with the majority. And frankly, I think it is quite plausible that some websites hit enough “applause lights” that they might find themselves on the LW endorsement list, even though their intellectual standards leave much to be desired.
If individual LW members wish to promote external websites, I’m all for it. They can post links in discussions, and by all means allow them to post links in their profiles more conspicuously and prominently than now, not just to their own websites but also to a list of favorite websites. But please don’t insist on an official list of collectively endorsed links.
You’ve articulated some of the problems of a blogroll well. Perhaps the blogroll idea could be evolved into a concept that better fits the needs of this community, while retaining its core value and simplicity:
1) Along side a link could be its controversy level, based on the votes for and against the link. By making the controversy explicit, the link can no longer be seen as a straight-up endorsement.
2) Along side a link could be its ranking based on say only the top 50 users. This would let people explicitly see what the majority vs. the “elite rationalists” thought—an interesting barometer of community rationality.
3) Split the “blogroll” in two—all-time most votes vs. most votes in the last week/month. This would alleviate the problem of staleness that Nancy pointed out. This is also nice because the links could be for not just websites, but any interesting new article.
4) Allow discussion of any link. Comments could warn users of applause lights etc. This is perhaps why the current voting system works well for choosing top posts, despite the problems you point out with majority opinion. A poor post/link can never get past the gauntlet of critical comments.
You could generalize this to the point that ordinary posts essentially become a special case of an “internal link”. Anyway, enough about a technical proposal—at this point I’m reluctant to push any harder on this. An impression I have of Less Wrong is that it’s somewhat of a walled garden (albeit a beautiful one!) and that such changes would open it up a little, while maintaining its integrity. The resistance people have seems to be rooted in this—a fear of in any way endorsing “inferior intellectual standards”. What we should instead be fearful of is not doing everything we can to raise the sanity waterline.
I wouldn’t do this. The top 50 users by karma score are more likely to be members who make a lot of comments than “elite rationalists”.
The controversy meter and using recent votes are good ideas (I wouldn’t split it, use only the recent votes).
You feel a good bit more strongly about this than I do. I would be inclined to look for a mild recommendation to head the blogroll—“possibly of interest” or “frequently rationalist” or somesuch.
However, your arguments remind me of another reason not to have a blogroll—they generally don’t get maintained, which means that they’re likely to include discontinued and inactive blogs.
This strikes me as the most cultish-sounding thing I’ve seen here—more so, say, than the boot camp.
This may be unreasonable on my part since I don’t have specific blogs in mind, but really—in the huge universe of blogs, no others are rationalist enough?
We couldn’t even settle on science and math blogs which would be of interest?
It’s cultish to say we don’t have a consensus on this?
I dunno Nancy. I mean you start off innocently clicking on a link to a math blog. Next minute you’re following these hyperlinks and soon you find yourself getting sucked into a quantum healing website. I’m still trying to get a refund on these crystals I ended up buying. Let’s face it. These seemingly harmless websites with unrigorous intellectual standards are really gateway drugs to hard-core irrationality. So I have a new feature request: every time someone clicks on an external link from Less Wrong, a piece of Javascript pops up with the message: “You are very probably about to enter an irrational area of the internet. Are you sure you want to continue?” If you have less than 100000 karma points, clicking yes simply redirects you the sequences.
What about ‘links to blogs which discuss similar things and/or use a similar approach to LW’?