Thanks for the comment, Jennifer. I agree with this:
If the abstract justification falls away, the justifications can sound hollow, and the
practices can stop with negative real world consequences.
To your two examples, I’ll provide two responses.
Re. Prayer: Given that I suspect god doesn’t exist or is probably non-interactive to say the least, I’m put in the position of needing to re-evaluate what really was occurring to transform my life. Obviously something occurred which transformed me from someone who resorted to substances during emotional lows to someone who no longer even feels that urge. I have also been able to quit smoking (which I found far more difficult) and have not had a cigarette in 4.5 years. But what was it?
My current theory (extremely rough) would propose that for believers, “god” represents “that which is perfect” or a moral watchdog of sorts (again, rough… just play along if possible). Meditating on what “what is perfect” would dictate you do with your day and time could be quite helpful. Dan Ariely shows that even when atheist swear on a Bible they are less prone to cheat afterward. Reflecting on “the good” (for believers, god’s will) probably produces tangible results.
As such, I have definitely thought of taking up a morning meditation/reflection ritual of some kind. I’ve not done so, which probably shows that somewhere in there meditation isn’t yet worth the extra snoozing I do each morning, but I can at least state I think this would be a valuable replacement for my former practice of prayer. In essence, I think I’m really going to be doing something similar… it’s just that now I’ll see it as what it always was: self-reflection on the best approaches toward various situations and how to self-improve rather than thinking that asking a non-existent being for the strength to do so was actually doing anything at all.
As a related one… I was in a men’s small group with fellow Catholics where we would discuss how god was working in our lives, what we were struggling with, etc. This, too, I think is a helpful practice and would fall into the category of things that have been thrown out by me, currently. It is one like prayer, though, in that I’d like to find a group of individuals interested in discussing life challenges and methods of “remedying deficiency” (as I like to call it). I have not found such a group quite yet but suspect that LW-ers may have something like this or that perhaps something like this can come out of my local Minnesota Atheists group.
Re. AA/12 Steps/Sobriety: This one is more interesting to me. At a point in the past, you’re probably right when you say that shedding my belief in god would have made my sobriety precarious. Part of this, however, is how AA teaches one to think about the nature of alcoholism. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point:
For when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit. The insanity of alcohol returns and we drink again. And with us, to drink is to die. (Alcoholics Anonymous, 4th ed., pg. 66)
We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control. (ibid, pg. 30)
God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. (ibid, pg. 84)
The theme is that of permanent sickness coupled with the dictate that only a “power greater than yourself” can restore you to sanity. AA’s common message is that this power can be anything, even a chair or door knob. But when reading from the chapter entitled, “We Agnostics”, note this passage:
Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn’t be life. But we believed in life—of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Of course we couldn’t. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said. (ibid, pg. 54)
I take this to mean that AA directly advocates at least a form of intentional creator god. AA was built with a Christian foundation, even if they stripped most of this away for the sake of universal accessibility. This passage also suggests (to me) an implication of nihilism if such a creator does not exist.
So, what to make of all of this? In my reflections on the steps themselves, I am not sure what to make of the first three any longer. They require an admission of personal hopelessness, that only a [supernatural] power greater than yourself can fix you, and that, therefore, the only sensible decision is to surrender your will and life (the difference?) to such a being. But what if there is no being granting such transforming power in return for submission/allegiance/dedication!?
The heart of the program, I believe, lies in steps 4-10. In summary, they are to “take inventory” (make a list of wrongdoings and character flaws), and discuss these findings with another (steps 4 and 5); to become willing to have such shortcomings removed (steps 6-7); to make a list of those you’ve harmed and to amend the relationship (steps 8-9); and to carry out a sort of “mini” version of 4-9 on a daily basis (step 10). This begins to sound like a form of reflection and reflection-inspired action which would begin to remove sources of guilt and self-hatred which could very well have been a prime contributor toward alcohol dependency in the first place.
Edited 10/2011: removed what followed. Personal details I chose to delete.
My current theory (extremely rough) would propose that for believers, “god” represents “that which is perfect” or a moral watchdog of sorts (again, rough… just play along if possible).
I think people oversetimate the importance of believing or not believing in God. I think you hit on some of the moving pieces of how believers might not be so different from non-believers. Whether you pray, or meditate, try to follow a benevelent god’s will, or try to opimize the good you can do with your life (as there is much discussion of doing in this rationalist lesswrong site), that final it of metaphysics is just a detail in a large picture of the world.
Where a believe in god seems to get people in more trouble is when that belief
1) gets conflated with a believe in some set of sacred texts, like the bible or the doctrines of the Roman church
2) causes us to yield to human authorities who have somehow convinced us they speak for god, again as with catholics although they are far from the worst example in modern times.
Of course even here on this rationalist blog, we recommend people read the sequences, which are largely written by one guy who is a local favorite interpreter of the world. The fact that we find great value in Eliezer and have, effectively, faith in his interpretation of the universe, might give us pause before damning the regligious who have also found their gurus, their apostles, their rabbis, and their saints to be well worth listening to. Finding someone brilliant and paying attention to them is a feature, not a bug, and it was a feature and not a bug even when that Brilliant man was St. Thomas Augustus or Jesus of Nazareth.
The one thing I think we do better here than any religion is to keep the open mind, that any question which is settled is only a little settled, for convenience of discussion, and is not so settled that we would ban or declare sinful any questioning of it.
But in terms of motivating positive change, that is a big theme here. You seem to have significant experience with that in your life, and it is wonderful to hear your take on these things.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. From a pragmatic sense, you may be right—whether striving for rationally decided goals or to please a cosmic being, one may improve one’s self. On the theoretical level, however, I find it a barrier when talking to religious (now that I doubt) since we obviously attribute different causation to events. On that level, I wonder if it’s healthy to think that an immaterial being inspired you to think thought x, provided you with a much needed pay increase, healed your flu earlier than you expected, or caused a healing in a strained relationship.
On those levels, I think there is a big difference. I do still think you made a valid point. Without explicitly asking one to provide the source of one’s “goodness” or success… individuals are probably indistinguishable to some degree if only studying actions, what they appear to value, etc.
Interesting point about Eliezer. I agree to some degree, though I’ve noticed a decent amount of negative feedback provided to him on various posts. I can admit a halo effect on my own part when reading him… but part of that is simply due to the fact that I really do like his writing (both content and style).
The one thing I think we do better here than any religion is to keep the open mind, that any question which is settled is only a little settled, for convenience of discussion, and is not so settled that we would ban or declare sinful any questioning of it.
I really liked that and agree that this is a large differentiating factor. Religions do not seem to allow for updating given new evidence or the possibility of fallibility (at least on some issues). I desire certainty but am trying to improve my ability to tolerate ambiguity.
I’ve heard a theory that AA is optimized for one sort of (usually male) alcoholic whose stance is “I can handle it” and not useful for another sort (usually female) whose stance is “I don’t deserve to have a good life”.
You sound like you’re in a third category.
This may just be snark, but I think some of the failings of AA correlate with usual descriptions of alcoholic/dry drunk thinking—in particular, black and white thinking (either you’re an alcoholic or you aren’t, if you’re an alcoholic then you’re an alcoholic forever) and lying—claiming that people who’ve been alcoholics can never drink safely when this simply isn’t true.
Interesting theory! The stories in AA literature (particularly the 3rd edition of the Big Book, though the 4th ed. has more women’s stories) generally suggest that; they are mostly tales of men who repeatedly tried to “control their drinking” and failed (blackouts, no idea what city they were in, stashing liquor all over the house to foster continual drinking, etc.).
Edited 10/2011: removed personal details I didn’t want present anymore.
Thanks for the comment, Jennifer. I agree with this:
To your two examples, I’ll provide two responses.
Re. Prayer: Given that I suspect god doesn’t exist or is probably non-interactive to say the least, I’m put in the position of needing to re-evaluate what really was occurring to transform my life. Obviously something occurred which transformed me from someone who resorted to substances during emotional lows to someone who no longer even feels that urge. I have also been able to quit smoking (which I found far more difficult) and have not had a cigarette in 4.5 years. But what was it?
My current theory (extremely rough) would propose that for believers, “god” represents “that which is perfect” or a moral watchdog of sorts (again, rough… just play along if possible). Meditating on what “what is perfect” would dictate you do with your day and time could be quite helpful. Dan Ariely shows that even when atheist swear on a Bible they are less prone to cheat afterward. Reflecting on “the good” (for believers, god’s will) probably produces tangible results.
As such, I have definitely thought of taking up a morning meditation/reflection ritual of some kind. I’ve not done so, which probably shows that somewhere in there meditation isn’t yet worth the extra snoozing I do each morning, but I can at least state I think this would be a valuable replacement for my former practice of prayer. In essence, I think I’m really going to be doing something similar… it’s just that now I’ll see it as what it always was: self-reflection on the best approaches toward various situations and how to self-improve rather than thinking that asking a non-existent being for the strength to do so was actually doing anything at all.
As a related one… I was in a men’s small group with fellow Catholics where we would discuss how god was working in our lives, what we were struggling with, etc. This, too, I think is a helpful practice and would fall into the category of things that have been thrown out by me, currently. It is one like prayer, though, in that I’d like to find a group of individuals interested in discussing life challenges and methods of “remedying deficiency” (as I like to call it). I have not found such a group quite yet but suspect that LW-ers may have something like this or that perhaps something like this can come out of my local Minnesota Atheists group.
Re. AA/12 Steps/Sobriety: This one is more interesting to me. At a point in the past, you’re probably right when you say that shedding my belief in god would have made my sobriety precarious. Part of this, however, is how AA teaches one to think about the nature of alcoholism. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point:
The theme is that of permanent sickness coupled with the dictate that only a “power greater than yourself” can restore you to sanity. AA’s common message is that this power can be anything, even a chair or door knob. But when reading from the chapter entitled, “We Agnostics”, note this passage:
I take this to mean that AA directly advocates at least a form of intentional creator god. AA was built with a Christian foundation, even if they stripped most of this away for the sake of universal accessibility. This passage also suggests (to me) an implication of nihilism if such a creator does not exist.
So, what to make of all of this? In my reflections on the steps themselves, I am not sure what to make of the first three any longer. They require an admission of personal hopelessness, that only a [supernatural] power greater than yourself can fix you, and that, therefore, the only sensible decision is to surrender your will and life (the difference?) to such a being. But what if there is no being granting such transforming power in return for submission/allegiance/dedication!?
The heart of the program, I believe, lies in steps 4-10. In summary, they are to “take inventory” (make a list of wrongdoings and character flaws), and discuss these findings with another (steps 4 and 5); to become willing to have such shortcomings removed (steps 6-7); to make a list of those you’ve harmed and to amend the relationship (steps 8-9); and to carry out a sort of “mini” version of 4-9 on a daily basis (step 10). This begins to sound like a form of reflection and reflection-inspired action which would begin to remove sources of guilt and self-hatred which could very well have been a prime contributor toward alcohol dependency in the first place.
Edited 10/2011: removed what followed. Personal details I chose to delete.
I think people oversetimate the importance of believing or not believing in God. I think you hit on some of the moving pieces of how believers might not be so different from non-believers. Whether you pray, or meditate, try to follow a benevelent god’s will, or try to opimize the good you can do with your life (as there is much discussion of doing in this rationalist lesswrong site), that final it of metaphysics is just a detail in a large picture of the world.
Where a believe in god seems to get people in more trouble is when that belief 1) gets conflated with a believe in some set of sacred texts, like the bible or the doctrines of the Roman church 2) causes us to yield to human authorities who have somehow convinced us they speak for god, again as with catholics although they are far from the worst example in modern times.
Of course even here on this rationalist blog, we recommend people read the sequences, which are largely written by one guy who is a local favorite interpreter of the world. The fact that we find great value in Eliezer and have, effectively, faith in his interpretation of the universe, might give us pause before damning the regligious who have also found their gurus, their apostles, their rabbis, and their saints to be well worth listening to. Finding someone brilliant and paying attention to them is a feature, not a bug, and it was a feature and not a bug even when that Brilliant man was St. Thomas Augustus or Jesus of Nazareth.
The one thing I think we do better here than any religion is to keep the open mind, that any question which is settled is only a little settled, for convenience of discussion, and is not so settled that we would ban or declare sinful any questioning of it.
But in terms of motivating positive change, that is a big theme here. You seem to have significant experience with that in your life, and it is wonderful to hear your take on these things.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. From a pragmatic sense, you may be right—whether striving for rationally decided goals or to please a cosmic being, one may improve one’s self. On the theoretical level, however, I find it a barrier when talking to religious (now that I doubt) since we obviously attribute different causation to events. On that level, I wonder if it’s healthy to think that an immaterial being inspired you to think thought x, provided you with a much needed pay increase, healed your flu earlier than you expected, or caused a healing in a strained relationship.
On those levels, I think there is a big difference. I do still think you made a valid point. Without explicitly asking one to provide the source of one’s “goodness” or success… individuals are probably indistinguishable to some degree if only studying actions, what they appear to value, etc.
Interesting point about Eliezer. I agree to some degree, though I’ve noticed a decent amount of negative feedback provided to him on various posts. I can admit a halo effect on my own part when reading him… but part of that is simply due to the fact that I really do like his writing (both content and style).
I really liked that and agree that this is a large differentiating factor. Religions do not seem to allow for updating given new evidence or the possibility of fallibility (at least on some issues). I desire certainty but am trying to improve my ability to tolerate ambiguity.
Thanks for the closing compliments.
I’ve heard a theory that AA is optimized for one sort of (usually male) alcoholic whose stance is “I can handle it” and not useful for another sort (usually female) whose stance is “I don’t deserve to have a good life”.
You sound like you’re in a third category.
This may just be snark, but I think some of the failings of AA correlate with usual descriptions of alcoholic/dry drunk thinking—in particular, black and white thinking (either you’re an alcoholic or you aren’t, if you’re an alcoholic then you’re an alcoholic forever) and lying—claiming that people who’ve been alcoholics can never drink safely when this simply isn’t true.
Interesting theory! The stories in AA literature (particularly the 3rd edition of the Big Book, though the 4th ed. has more women’s stories) generally suggest that; they are mostly tales of men who repeatedly tried to “control their drinking” and failed (blackouts, no idea what city they were in, stashing liquor all over the house to foster continual drinking, etc.).
Edited 10/2011: removed personal details I didn’t want present anymore.