How about a turn-based strategy game where the object is to get deep enough into the singularity to upload yourself before a uFAI shows up and turns the universe into paper clips?
I don’t think that would be very helpful. Advocating rationality (even through Harry Potter fanfiction) helps because people are better at thinking about the future and existential risks when they care about and understand rationality. But spreading singularity memes as a kind of literary genre won’t do that. (With all due respect, your idea doesn’t even make sense: I don’t think “deep enough into the singularity” means anything with respect to what we actually talk about as the “singularity” here (successfully launching a Friendly singularity probably means the world is going to be remade in weeks or days or hours or minutes, and it probably means we’re through with having to manually save the world from any remaining threats), and if a uFAI wants to turn the universe into paperclips, then you’re screwed anyway, because the computer you just uploaded yourself into is part of the universe.)
Unfortunately, I don’t think we can get people excited about bringing about a Friendly singularity by speaking honestly about how it happens purely at the object level, because what actually needs to be done is tons of math (plus some outreach and maybe paper-writing and book-writing and eventually a lot of coding). Saving the world isn’t actually going to be an exciting ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny, and any marketing and publicity shouldn’t be setting people up for disappointment by portraying it as such… and it should also be making it clear that even if existential risk reduction were fun and exciting, it wouldn’t be something you do for yourself because it’s fun and exciting, and you don’t do it because you get to affiliate with smart/high-status people and/or become known as one yourself, and you don’t do it because you personally want to live forever and don’t care about the rest of the world, you do it because it’s the right thing to do no matter how little you personally get out of it.
So we don’t want to push the public further toward thinking of the singularity as a geek / sci-fi / power-fantasy / narcissistic thing (I realize some of those are automatic associations and pattern completions that people independently generate, but that’s to be resisted and refuted rather than embraced). Fiction that portrays rationality as virtuous (and transparent, as in the Rationalist Fanfiction Principle) and that portrays transhumanistic protagonists that people can identify with (or at least like) is good because it makes the right methods and values salient and sympathetic and exciting. Giving people a vision of a future where humanity has gotten its shit together as a thing-to-protect is good; anything that makes AI or the Singularity or even FAI seem too much like an end in itself will probably be detrimental, especially if it is portrayed anywhere near anthropomorphically enough for it to be a protagonist or antagonist in a video game.
Maybe it would work, and maybe not, but I think that the demographic we want to reach is 4chan—teenage hackers. We need to tap into the “Dark Side” of the Cyberculture.
Only if they can be lured to the Light Side. The *chans seem rather tribal and amoral (at least the /b/s and the surrounding culture; I know that’s not the entirety of the *chans, but they have the strongest influence in those circles). If the right marketing can turn them from apathetic tribalist sociopaths into altruistic globalist transhumanists, then that’s great, but I wouldn’t focus limited resources in that direction. Probably better to reach out to academia; at least that culture is merely inefficient rather than actively evil.
I don’t think that would be very helpful. [And here is why...]
I am impressed. A serious and thoughtful reply to a maybe serious, but definitely not thoughtful, suggestion. Thank you.
If the right marketing can turn them [the *chans] from apathetic tribalist sociopaths into altruistic globalist transhumanists, then that’s great, but I wouldn’t focus limited resources in that direction. Probably better to reach out to academia; at least that culture is merely inefficient rather than actively evil.
“Actively evil” is not “inherently evil”. The action currently is over on the evil side because the establishment is boring. Anti-establishment evil is currently more fun. But what happens if the establishment becomes evil and boring? Could happen on the way to a friendly singularity. Don’t rule any strategies out. Thwarting a nascent uFAI may be one of the steps we need to take along the path to FAI.
I am impressed. A serious and thoughtful reply to a maybe serious, but definitely not thoughtful, suggestion. Thank you.
Thank you for taking it well; sometimes I still get nervous about criticizing. :)
“Actively evil” is not “inherently evil”. The action currently is over on the evil side because the establishment is boring. Anti-establishment evil is currently more fun. But what happens if the establishment becomes evil and boring? Could happen on the way to a friendly singularity. Don’t rule any strategies out. Thwarting a nascent uFAI may be one of the steps we need to take along the path to FAI.
I’ve heard the /b/ / “Anonymous” culture described as Chaotic Neutral, which seems apt. My main concern is that waiting for the right thing to become fun for them to rebel against is not efficient. (Example: Anonymous’s movement against Scientology began not in any of the preceding years when Scientology was just as harmful as always, but only once they got an embarrassing video of Tom Cruise taken down from YouTube. “Project Chanology” began not as anything altruistic, but as a morally-neutral rebellion against what was perceived as anti-lulz. It did eventually grow into a larger movement including people who had never heard of “Anonymous” before, people who actually were in it to make the world a better place whether the process was funny or not. These people were often dismissed as “moralfags” by the 4chan old-timers.) Indeed they are not inherently evil, but when morality is not a strong consideration one way or the other, it’s too easy for evil to be more fun than good. I would not rely on them (or even expect them) to accomplish any long-term good when that’s not what they’re optimizing for.
(And there’s the usual “herding cats” problem — even if something would normally seem fun to them, they’re not going to be interested if they get the sense that someone is trying to use them.)
Maybe some useful goal that appeals to their sensibilities will eventually present itself, but for now, if we’re thinking about where to direct limited resources and time and attention, putting forth the 4chan crowd as a good target demographic seems like a privileged hypothesis. “Teenage hackers” are great (I was one!), but I’m not sure about reaching out to them once they’re already involved in 4chan-type cultures. There are probably better times and places to get smart young people interested.
I don’t think that would be very helpful. Advocating rationality (even through Harry Potter fanfiction) helps because people are better at thinking about the future and existential risks when they care about and understand rationality. But spreading singularity memes as a kind of literary genre won’t do that. (With all due respect, your idea doesn’t even make sense: I don’t think “deep enough into the singularity” means anything with respect to what we actually talk about as the “singularity” here (successfully launching a Friendly singularity probably means the world is going to be remade in weeks or days or hours or minutes, and it probably means we’re through with having to manually save the world from any remaining threats), and if a uFAI wants to turn the universe into paperclips, then you’re screwed anyway, because the computer you just uploaded yourself into is part of the universe.)
Unfortunately, I don’t think we can get people excited about bringing about a Friendly singularity by speaking honestly about how it happens purely at the object level, because what actually needs to be done is tons of math (plus some outreach and maybe paper-writing and book-writing and eventually a lot of coding). Saving the world isn’t actually going to be an exciting ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny, and any marketing and publicity shouldn’t be setting people up for disappointment by portraying it as such… and it should also be making it clear that even if existential risk reduction were fun and exciting, it wouldn’t be something you do for yourself because it’s fun and exciting, and you don’t do it because you get to affiliate with smart/high-status people and/or become known as one yourself, and you don’t do it because you personally want to live forever and don’t care about the rest of the world, you do it because it’s the right thing to do no matter how little you personally get out of it.
So we don’t want to push the public further toward thinking of the singularity as a geek / sci-fi / power-fantasy / narcissistic thing (I realize some of those are automatic associations and pattern completions that people independently generate, but that’s to be resisted and refuted rather than embraced). Fiction that portrays rationality as virtuous (and transparent, as in the Rationalist Fanfiction Principle) and that portrays transhumanistic protagonists that people can identify with (or at least like) is good because it makes the right methods and values salient and sympathetic and exciting. Giving people a vision of a future where humanity has gotten its shit together as a thing-to-protect is good; anything that makes AI or the Singularity or even FAI seem too much like an end in itself will probably be detrimental, especially if it is portrayed anywhere near anthropomorphically enough for it to be a protagonist or antagonist in a video game.
Only if they can be lured to the Light Side. The *chans seem rather tribal and amoral (at least the /b/s and the surrounding culture; I know that’s not the entirety of the *chans, but they have the strongest influence in those circles). If the right marketing can turn them from apathetic tribalist sociopaths into altruistic globalist transhumanists, then that’s great, but I wouldn’t focus limited resources in that direction. Probably better to reach out to academia; at least that culture is merely inefficient rather than actively evil.
I am impressed. A serious and thoughtful reply to a maybe serious, but definitely not thoughtful, suggestion. Thank you.
“Actively evil” is not “inherently evil”. The action currently is over on the evil side because the establishment is boring. Anti-establishment evil is currently more fun. But what happens if the establishment becomes evil and boring? Could happen on the way to a friendly singularity. Don’t rule any strategies out. Thwarting a nascent uFAI may be one of the steps we need to take along the path to FAI.
Thank you for taking it well; sometimes I still get nervous about criticizing. :)
I’ve heard the /b/ / “Anonymous” culture described as Chaotic Neutral, which seems apt. My main concern is that waiting for the right thing to become fun for them to rebel against is not efficient. (Example: Anonymous’s movement against Scientology began not in any of the preceding years when Scientology was just as harmful as always, but only once they got an embarrassing video of Tom Cruise taken down from YouTube. “Project Chanology” began not as anything altruistic, but as a morally-neutral rebellion against what was perceived as anti-lulz. It did eventually grow into a larger movement including people who had never heard of “Anonymous” before, people who actually were in it to make the world a better place whether the process was funny or not. These people were often dismissed as “moralfags” by the 4chan old-timers.) Indeed they are not inherently evil, but when morality is not a strong consideration one way or the other, it’s too easy for evil to be more fun than good. I would not rely on them (or even expect them) to accomplish any long-term good when that’s not what they’re optimizing for.
(And there’s the usual “herding cats” problem — even if something would normally seem fun to them, they’re not going to be interested if they get the sense that someone is trying to use them.)
Maybe some useful goal that appeals to their sensibilities will eventually present itself, but for now, if we’re thinking about where to direct limited resources and time and attention, putting forth the 4chan crowd as a good target demographic seems like a privileged hypothesis. “Teenage hackers” are great (I was one!), but I’m not sure about reaching out to them once they’re already involved in 4chan-type cultures. There are probably better times and places to get smart young people interested.