I think that the argument you’re going for here (though I’m not entirely sure, so do correct me if I’m misinterpeting you) is “if everyone decided to dedicate their lives to altruism while accepting full misery to themselves, then everyone would be miserable, and thus a dedication to full altruism that makes you miserable is counterproductive to being altruistic”.
More like, “If everyone decided to dedicate their lives to altruism while accepting full misery to themselves, then everyone would be miserable, therefore total altruism is an incoherent value insofar as you expect anyone (including yourself) to ever actually follow it to its logical conclusion, therefore you shouldn’t follow it in the first place.”
Or, put simply, “Your supposed all-altruism is self-contradictory in the limit.” Hence my having to put a disclaimer saying I’m not evil, since that’s one of the most evil-villain-y statements I’ve ever made.
Of course, there are complications. For one thing, most people don’t have the self-destructive messiah complex necessary for total altruism, so you can’t apply first-level superrationality (ie: the Categorical Imperative) as including everyone. What I do endorse doing is acting with a high-enough level of altruism to make up for the people who don’t act with any altruism while also engaging in some delta of actual non-superrational altruism.
How to figure out what level of altruistic action that implies, I have no idea. But I think it’s better to be honest about the logically necessary level of selfishness than to pretend you’re being totally altruistic but rationalize reasons to take care of yourself anyway.
“If everyone decided to dedicate their lives to altruism while accepting full misery to themselves, then everyone would be miserable, therefore total altruism is an incoherent value insofar as you expect anyone (including yourself) to ever actually follow it to its logical conclusion, therefore you shouldn’t follow it in the first place.”
Sorry, I don’t follow. If the logical result of accepting full misery to oneself would be everyone being miserable, why wouldn’t the altruists just reason this out and not accept full misery to themselves? “Valuing everyone the same as yourself” doesn’t mean you’d have to let others treat you any way they like, it just means you’d in principle be ready for it, if it was necessary.
(I think we’re just debating semantics rather than disagreeing now, do you agree?)
I think we have slightly different values, but are coming to identical practical conclusions, so we’re agreeing violently.
EDIT: Besides, I totally get warm fuzzies from being nice to people, so it’s not like I don’t have a “selfish” motivation towards a higher level of altruism, anyway. SWEAR I’M NOT EVIL.
Serious answer: Even if I don’t endorse it, I do feel a pang of guilt/envy/low-status at being less than 100% a self-impoverishing Effective Altruist, which has been coming out as an urge to declare myself not-evil, even by comparison.
Okay, in that case you should stop feeling those negative emotions right now. :) Nobody here is a 100% self-impoverishing EA, and we ended up agreeing that it wouldn’t even be a useful goal to have, so go indulge yourself in something not-at-all-useful-nor-altruistic and do feel good about it. :)
More like, “If everyone decided to dedicate their lives to altruism while accepting full misery to themselves, then everyone would be miserable, therefore total altruism is an incoherent value insofar as you expect anyone (including yourself) to ever actually follow it to its logical conclusion, therefore you shouldn’t follow it in the first place.”
Or, put simply, “Your supposed all-altruism is self-contradictory in the limit.” Hence my having to put a disclaimer saying I’m not evil, since that’s one of the most evil-villain-y statements I’ve ever made.
Of course, there are complications. For one thing, most people don’t have the self-destructive messiah complex necessary for total altruism, so you can’t apply first-level superrationality (ie: the Categorical Imperative) as including everyone. What I do endorse doing is acting with a high-enough level of altruism to make up for the people who don’t act with any altruism while also engaging in some delta of actual non-superrational altruism.
How to figure out what level of altruistic action that implies, I have no idea. But I think it’s better to be honest about the logically necessary level of selfishness than to pretend you’re being totally altruistic but rationalize reasons to take care of yourself anyway.
Sorry, I don’t follow. If the logical result of accepting full misery to oneself would be everyone being miserable, why wouldn’t the altruists just reason this out and not accept full misery to themselves? “Valuing everyone the same as yourself” doesn’t mean you’d have to let others treat you any way they like, it just means you’d in principle be ready for it, if it was necessary.
(I think we’re just debating semantics rather than disagreeing now, do you agree?)
I think we have slightly different values, but are coming to identical practical conclusions, so we’re agreeing violently.
EDIT: Besides, I totally get warm fuzzies from being nice to people, so it’s not like I don’t have a “selfish” motivation towards a higher level of altruism, anyway. SWEAR I’M NOT EVIL.
You said you’d prefer everyone to live awesome lives, I’m not sure how that could be construed as evil. :)
Serious answer: Even if I don’t endorse it, I do feel a pang of guilt/envy/low-status at being less than 100% a self-impoverishing Effective Altruist, which has been coming out as an urge to declare myself not-evil, even by comparison.
Joke answer: eyes flash white, sips tea. SOON.
Okay, in that case you should stop feeling those negative emotions right now. :) Nobody here is a 100% self-impoverishing EA, and we ended up agreeing that it wouldn’t even be a useful goal to have, so go indulge yourself in something not-at-all-useful-nor-altruistic and do feel good about it. :)