Fully agreed, but I think that hard-mode is where kindness is most important. Everyone IS suffering, and the total amount of suffering CAN be higher or lower depending on our decisions, and on our mechanisms for negotiation and understanding. Honestly, I’m sympathetic to defined property rights being the fallback resolution, in the cases where the involved people can’t agree on a better equilibrium. I’m just saddened at the state of humanity that this is the first-best option brought up, rather than actual discussion and empathy.
> I also think tall people have asserted without proving that their suffering is greatest here.
Yup, that IS the downfall of Utilitarianism as a philosophy. Interpersonal utility comparisons are impossible, so reducing net suffering is undefined. That shouldn’t prevent us trying, even if we recognize that it’s not objectively or universally correct.
Personally, I’m quite tall and suffer knee pain in coach seats, even if reclined, but much worse when the seat in front of me reclines. My solution is to harm the environment a bit more and waste money on business-class tickets, but that’s not available to most (or to me, sometimes). Even so, I’ll gladly discuss how much it helps me and how much it harms the other people to recline or not. MOST of the time, I’m willing to stay upright, and able to convince the person in front of me to do so. I have not needed to resort to pushing or loudly saying OW OW OW OW until the person in front sits up (or the flight attendant rules for or against me), but I’d consider it if it came to that.
Compounding this are the status games hardwired into humans. A lot of people feel better about their own suffering if others are also suffering. This really sucks.
Something clicked for me as I planned Christmas travel.
I find long distance air travel unpleasant. I’ve spent the money that can be spent improving it but it’s still just pretty bad. I get through it with a healthy dose of dissociation. This works fine under the current system, but it means I will lose contests of suffering because I’ve cut off knowledge of the suffering from my forebrain. Just the request to register my pain levels increases my experience of pain. If the deal is that I have to be completely in touch with the pain and empathetic to others’ pain and be socially graceful to everyone while I’m explaining that pain (because if I’m rude I’ll lose no matter what my pain level) while simultaneously being convincingly hurt and do math about who is actually suffering more, knowing that both people are incentivized to play their suffering up? But if I opt out of the game then I get to hurt a bunch more and recovering will take longer and maybe the other guy wasn’t even suffering that much, which is why he was having such an easy time talking about it? And whether I win or lose, I’m going to have a much worse flight because the dissociation spell is broken.
I would honestly rather you handed us both a knife and declare whoever cut themselves deeper the winner.
I’m probably at the strong end of this preference, but I do think a weaker version of “being asked to register your own pain levels and compare with someone else’s is itself a cost” applies to many people, and the utilitarian math needs to take that into account when deciding between suffering contest and property rights based solutions.
Fully agreed, but I think that hard-mode is where kindness is most important. Everyone IS suffering, and the total amount of suffering CAN be higher or lower depending on our decisions, and on our mechanisms for negotiation and understanding. Honestly, I’m sympathetic to defined property rights being the fallback resolution, in the cases where the involved people can’t agree on a better equilibrium. I’m just saddened at the state of humanity that this is the first-best option brought up, rather than actual discussion and empathy.
> I also think tall people have asserted without proving that their suffering is greatest here.
Yup, that IS the downfall of Utilitarianism as a philosophy. Interpersonal utility comparisons are impossible, so reducing net suffering is undefined. That shouldn’t prevent us trying, even if we recognize that it’s not objectively or universally correct.
Personally, I’m quite tall and suffer knee pain in coach seats, even if reclined, but much worse when the seat in front of me reclines. My solution is to harm the environment a bit more and waste money on business-class tickets, but that’s not available to most (or to me, sometimes). Even so, I’ll gladly discuss how much it helps me and how much it harms the other people to recline or not. MOST of the time, I’m willing to stay upright, and able to convince the person in front of me to do so. I have not needed to resort to pushing or loudly saying OW OW OW OW until the person in front sits up (or the flight attendant rules for or against me), but I’d consider it if it came to that.
Compounding this are the status games hardwired into humans. A lot of people feel better about their own suffering if others are also suffering. This really sucks.
Something clicked for me as I planned Christmas travel.
I find long distance air travel unpleasant. I’ve spent the money that can be spent improving it but it’s still just pretty bad. I get through it with a healthy dose of dissociation. This works fine under the current system, but it means I will lose contests of suffering because I’ve cut off knowledge of the suffering from my forebrain. Just the request to register my pain levels increases my experience of pain. If the deal is that I have to be completely in touch with the pain and empathetic to others’ pain and be socially graceful to everyone while I’m explaining that pain (because if I’m rude I’ll lose no matter what my pain level) while simultaneously being convincingly hurt and do math about who is actually suffering more, knowing that both people are incentivized to play their suffering up? But if I opt out of the game then I get to hurt a bunch more and recovering will take longer and maybe the other guy wasn’t even suffering that much, which is why he was having such an easy time talking about it? And whether I win or lose, I’m going to have a much worse flight because the dissociation spell is broken.
I would honestly rather you handed us both a knife and declare whoever cut themselves deeper the winner.
I’m probably at the strong end of this preference, but I do think a weaker version of “being asked to register your own pain levels and compare with someone else’s is itself a cost” applies to many people, and the utilitarian math needs to take that into account when deciding between suffering contest and property rights based solutions.