I can see why you would consider what you call “mysticism”, or metaphysical belief systems, a warning sign. However, the use of mystical text forms, which is what I was referring to in my comment, is quite unrelated to this kind of metaphysical and cosmological rigidity. Compare, say, Christian fundamentalists versus Quakers or Unitarian Universalists, or Islamic Wahabis and Qutbis versus Sufis: the most doctrinal and memetically dangerous groups make only sparing use of mystical practices, or forbid them outright.
Atheists and agnostics are obviously a more challenging case, but it appears that at least some neopagans comfortably identify as such, using their supposed metaphysical beliefs as functionally useful aliefs, to be invoked through a ritual whenever the psychical effects of such rituals are desired. There is in fact an account of just such a ritual practice on LW itself involving the Winter Solstice, which is often celebrated as a festival by neopagan groups. It’s hard to describe that account as anything other than a mystical ritual aiming to infuence the participants in very specific ways and induce a desirable stance of mind among them. In fact, that particular practice may be regarded as extremely foolish and memetically dangerous (because it involves a fairly blatant kind of happy-death-spiral) in a way that other mystical practices are not. I now see that post as a cautionary tale about the dangers of self-mindhacking, but that does not justify its wholesale rejection, particularly in an instructional context where long-term change is in fact desired.
that the people who decompartmentalise crazy and do crazy stuff—fundies, cultists, fundie cultists—have a strong aversion to ambiguity, subtlety, irony;
that groups with weird ideas who are not averse to ambiguity, subtlety or irony are less likely to do crazy stuff.
The first I think is obvious, the second as a positive result would be somewhat surprising and worthy of investigation.
I also suspect that a lot of romantic objection to rationality and science is that they see science as an example of group 1 holding that anything that can’t be measured doesn’t exist and throwing away important detail.
I wonder how we would meaningfully gather numbers on such things.
I think mysticism is inherently irrational, and thus seriously participating in “mysticism itself” is counter-productive if you wish you become more rational. But I say “seriously participating”, because as you say, perhaps mystical aliefs can be used to produce useful mental states—as long as it is recognized that that’s what you’re doing, and you don’t ascribe any special significance to the mystical aspects (i.e., you recognize that the same effect can probably be achieved without any such relics; it’s just a matter of preference).
Like those neopagans you mention, I am both an atheist and a Wodanist. I use Wodan as a symbol of various ideals, and the devotions, rituals, symbols, etc. involved to remind myself of these. My actual beliefs are entirely atheistic and materialistic, but I enjoy the trappings and history behind Germanic paganism of this sort; thus, the main reason behind my Wodanism is simply enjoyment. Useful? Yes, as a reminder or way to encourage yourself (e.g., “though I am tempted to waste my money, I will be self-disciplined like my patron god”) - but that’s entirely apart from any mystical aspects.
Useful? Yes, as a reminder or way to encourage yourself (e.g., “though I am tempted to waste my money, I will be self-disciplined like my patron god”) - but that’s entirely apart from any mystical aspects.
I agree with this as far as rational belief is concerned, and on a denotational level. But I’m not sure whether one can achieve the very tangible benefits of enacting rituals involving such “gods” as Pan, Wodan or Hermes/Thoth without alieving that the gods are really there at some level—if only as archetypes of one’s unconscious psychology—so that one can relate to them on their own terms.
As long as the “gods” are not literally considered as supernatural entities (whatever that might mean) believing in them needs not be any more irrational than believing in any other features of our psychology. But successfully channeling a god might require us to connote that belief in ways that will seem quite foreign to a rationalistic, logically-oriented mental stance.
Well, that gets rather complicated. Think of it as the extent to which the religion appeals and encourages irrationality, and this causes its followers to be instrumentally irrational in verifiable ways. I’m not talking about self-identified moral or ethical systems here, but rather obviously crazy beliefs like “Our god will reward you with a heavenly garden and 42 virgins if you become a martyr” or “You need to purify yourself from the tiny spiritual beings which were brought to Earth by an all-powerful alien millions of years ago”. Stuff like that will appeal to human utility/reward functions in fairly obvious ways, assuming that it is truly, fervently believed.
I can see why you would consider what you call “mysticism”, or metaphysical belief systems, a warning sign. However, the use of mystical text forms, which is what I was referring to in my comment, is quite unrelated to this kind of metaphysical and cosmological rigidity. Compare, say, Christian fundamentalists versus Quakers or Unitarian Universalists, or Islamic Wahabis and Qutbis versus Sufis: the most doctrinal and memetically dangerous groups make only sparing use of mystical practices, or forbid them outright.
Atheists and agnostics are obviously a more challenging case, but it appears that at least some neopagans comfortably identify as such, using their supposed metaphysical beliefs as functionally useful aliefs, to be invoked through a ritual whenever the psychical effects of such rituals are desired. There is in fact an account of just such a ritual practice on LW itself involving the Winter Solstice, which is often celebrated as a festival by neopagan groups. It’s hard to describe that account as anything other than a mystical ritual aiming to infuence the participants in very specific ways and induce a desirable stance of mind among them. In fact, that particular practice may be regarded as extremely foolish and memetically dangerous (because it involves a fairly blatant kind of happy-death-spiral) in a way that other mystical practices are not. I now see that post as a cautionary tale about the dangers of self-mindhacking, but that does not justify its wholesale rejection, particularly in an instructional context where long-term change is in fact desired.
This does sound plausible:
that the people who decompartmentalise crazy and do crazy stuff—fundies, cultists, fundie cultists—have a strong aversion to ambiguity, subtlety, irony;
that groups with weird ideas who are not averse to ambiguity, subtlety or irony are less likely to do crazy stuff.
The first I think is obvious, the second as a positive result would be somewhat surprising and worthy of investigation.
I also suspect that a lot of romantic objection to rationality and science is that they see science as an example of group 1 holding that anything that can’t be measured doesn’t exist and throwing away important detail.
I wonder how we would meaningfully gather numbers on such things.
I think mysticism is inherently irrational, and thus seriously participating in “mysticism itself” is counter-productive if you wish you become more rational. But I say “seriously participating”, because as you say, perhaps mystical aliefs can be used to produce useful mental states—as long as it is recognized that that’s what you’re doing, and you don’t ascribe any special significance to the mystical aspects (i.e., you recognize that the same effect can probably be achieved without any such relics; it’s just a matter of preference).
Like those neopagans you mention, I am both an atheist and a Wodanist. I use Wodan as a symbol of various ideals, and the devotions, rituals, symbols, etc. involved to remind myself of these. My actual beliefs are entirely atheistic and materialistic, but I enjoy the trappings and history behind Germanic paganism of this sort; thus, the main reason behind my Wodanism is simply enjoyment. Useful? Yes, as a reminder or way to encourage yourself (e.g., “though I am tempted to waste my money, I will be self-disciplined like my patron god”) - but that’s entirely apart from any mystical aspects.
I agree with this as far as rational belief is concerned, and on a denotational level. But I’m not sure whether one can achieve the very tangible benefits of enacting rituals involving such “gods” as Pan, Wodan or Hermes/Thoth without alieving that the gods are really there at some level—if only as archetypes of one’s unconscious psychology—so that one can relate to them on their own terms.
As long as the “gods” are not literally considered as supernatural entities (whatever that might mean) believing in them needs not be any more irrational than believing in any other features of our psychology. But successfully channeling a god might require us to connote that belief in ways that will seem quite foreign to a rationalistic, logically-oriented mental stance.
What are your criteria for this?
Well, that gets rather complicated. Think of it as the extent to which the religion appeals and encourages irrationality, and this causes its followers to be instrumentally irrational in verifiable ways. I’m not talking about self-identified moral or ethical systems here, but rather obviously crazy beliefs like “Our god will reward you with a heavenly garden and 42 virgins if you become a martyr” or “You need to purify yourself from the tiny spiritual beings which were brought to Earth by an all-powerful alien millions of years ago”. Stuff like that will appeal to human utility/reward functions in fairly obvious ways, assuming that it is truly, fervently believed.