For me, I have observed that romantic attraction to someone takes three ingredients[1]:
That I admire her.
That my brain finds it likely that we’ll do things that make each other happy.
That I spend time in her presence or thinking about her.
The qualities I find admirable, I generally list as: intelligence, beauty, kindness, competence, ethicality, etc. (Mostly the same as the list of qualities I find admirable in a human.) Possibly there are more that I didn’t think of, or haven’t seen vary independently from the above.
There is room for some of these traits to compensate for others: e.g. I’ve met several girls whose physical attractiveness is “meh”, but, after I gained a better appreciation for their intelligence and other qualities, I developed romantic feelings for them. However, some traits can be dealbreakers: e.g. a few times I liked someone who was really smart and pretty, but then I saw evidence that they were mean (that they deliberately did something to hurt someone else, or treated someone callously and disrespectfully), and my feelings evaporated (that doesn’t mean I formed a final judgment of them, and in one case I changed my mind later; but “holding judgment in abeyance due to serious concerns” does dissipate feelings). Some traits might be “able to be compensated for, if within some range, but if extreme enough could be dealbreakers”; actually that might be the case for most traits.
“That she likes/appreciates me” is a thing possibly deserving special attention. It feeds into #2, of course, and possibly into #1—it’s extremely self-serving, but I do think I’m admirable by my own standards, and that it reflects well on someone if they manage to notice the right things and value them.[2] However, I’ve certainly formed lots of crushes where I had little data on whether they liked me back. Which, I suppose, is stronger evidence about the underlying qualities (as I perceived them) of the last group; one could imagine girls who are at the borderline, such that if they like me then I like them, but if they don’t then I don’t.
One could imagine being tempted to be strategic: hiding whether you like me, so you can find out whether you’re in the borderline group. (I’ve heard of fictional characters doing this, and real people doing at least somewhat similar things.) I’ll mention reasons not to do this: (a) in context, depending on what “hiding” consists of, it might be weird or register as an inconsistency; (b) given that at least one of us has scored 30+ on the Autism Spectrum Quotient, it seems likely that what you believe I’ve seen about you and the signals you’re sending doesn’t match what I’ve received; (c) for a long-term committed relationship, both of us want much better than borderline, so we should be able to cooperate on finding that out anyway; (d) I value honesty and straightforwardness, and good decisionmaking—and if you truly saw a likelihood of a great long-term relationship with me, but decided to risk it on signaling games that could run afoul of (a) and (b), that strikes me as a bad decision.
You ask specifically about age. I do intend to have kids, which makes the age of my wife-to-be relevant—though if she’s fine with IVF and stuff (which has other advantages), that makes age less relevant. I have found women in their forties and fifties sexually attractive (speaking as a 30-year-old), and had romantic feelings for one of the latter—she’s extremely smart, reasonably pretty, very competent, very kind, has similar opinions about raising kids, etc. Not all guys like older women, but the popularity of MILF porn indicates that plenty do (there is even a GILF category).
- If I admire her, then my brain generally endorses the idea of spending time with her, growing to trust her, building a relationship. - If the first two conditions apply, then, when I imagine interacting with her, I will generally find it enjoyable, and want to do more of it. This can become a self-reinforcing loop. Romantic fantasy can be a lovely pastime. - The third condition lets the loop begin.
For the record, I have sometimes observed someone form a positive opinion of me based on something shallow or incorrect, and my reaction has been bemused / raising an eyebrow / somewhat lowering my opinion of them.
for a long-term committed relationship, both of us want much better than borderline, so we should be able to cooperate on finding that out anyway;
I think it’s worth being specific about “borderline,” curious what you think about this.
In my model, most people in the same culture broadly agree on people’s attractiveness levels—there’s a “g factor” for attractiveness. They also compete effectively for mates. Being heteronormative for a moment, this means that the husbands find their wives about as attractive as the wives find their husbands.
Luck and personal idiosyncrasies mean that people can sometimes find their own partner slightly more attractive than most people would. For example, if a man has a preference for unusually short women, and if those women are typically considered relatively unattractive, he might consider his short wife an 6 when most people would consider her a 4.[1] However, she might consider him a 4, but be happy to date him because she herself is a 4 and finds him typical of the most attractive class of men who show her interest.
This “luck and idiosyncrasy bonus” might be the difference between a “borderline” match (a 4 dating a 4) and a “good” match (two 4s who consider each other 5s due to their mutual attraction to each others’ idiosyncrasies).
A different definition of “borderline” might mean dating somebody you find very attractive (perhaps an 8-10). In my opinion, this is only a realistic expectation if you yourself are in the 8-10 range, or if you’re a 6-7 and willing to hold out a long time for the right mix of luck and idiosyncratic compatibility.
In this model, it’s good to encourage people to spend time looking around for a partner they’re somewhat unusually compatible with, but who would be seen by most people as basically equally as attractive as you are. You’ll know it’s a good match when you each find that the other person fits some odd set of personal preferences that you know most people don’t share, or at least that they don’t feel as strongly about as you do.
In my case, my partner has a similar sense of goofy physical humor, is unusually forthright and willing to deal with my LW-trained debate style despite not having any interest in it herself, doesn’t mind my odd sleep schedule, accommodates me nattering on about my projects, has been willing to patiently wait out a 2 year separation while we’ve had to live 2,000 miles apart for grad school, is exceptionally levelheaded about politics, and is very good at managing her own emotional state.
We each have similar aspects that most people probably find somewhat unattractive. Neither of us grows much hair on our heads. My body is very hairy, her shape is well shy of rubinesque but not thin. Neither of us earns much money right now, and we’re both grinding through grad school. We both dress OK but nothing special, and while neither of us have particular hygiene problems, neither of us is that focused on personal grooming. She is distractable, I’m caught up in my own thoughts. She’s rather cautious, and I take things too seriously. I think that if most people viewed us as a couple, we’d look pretty well matched as far as looks and social charm goes.
Sometimes, I find myself comparing what we might call my partner’s “sexual market value” to other women I’ve dated in the past. Then I remind myself that she is by far the most stable, caring, generous, solid, kind, honest person I’ve dated, the most willing to compromise, the person who’s on the most similar life trajectory to my own. I’ve dated some really conventionally beautiful women, but they were always emotionally unstable, manipulative, struggling in life, or just temporarily having a fling with me and not interested in anything long term. It’s not that conventionally beautiful women are this way intrinsically, it’s just that the conventionally women who have been willing to date me are usually struggling to hang on to a steady relationship with a more attractive man for a reason.
Ranking people’s attractiveness on a 10 point scale feels dumb/crass but it is helpful to express the thought in this case. I’m sorry if it offends anybody.
For me, I have observed that romantic attraction to someone takes three ingredients[1]:
That I admire her.
That my brain finds it likely that we’ll do things that make each other happy.
That I spend time in her presence or thinking about her.
The qualities I find admirable, I generally list as: intelligence, beauty, kindness, competence, ethicality, etc. (Mostly the same as the list of qualities I find admirable in a human.) Possibly there are more that I didn’t think of, or haven’t seen vary independently from the above.
There is room for some of these traits to compensate for others: e.g. I’ve met several girls whose physical attractiveness is “meh”, but, after I gained a better appreciation for their intelligence and other qualities, I developed romantic feelings for them. However, some traits can be dealbreakers: e.g. a few times I liked someone who was really smart and pretty, but then I saw evidence that they were mean (that they deliberately did something to hurt someone else, or treated someone callously and disrespectfully), and my feelings evaporated (that doesn’t mean I formed a final judgment of them, and in one case I changed my mind later; but “holding judgment in abeyance due to serious concerns” does dissipate feelings). Some traits might be “able to be compensated for, if within some range, but if extreme enough could be dealbreakers”; actually that might be the case for most traits.
“That she likes/appreciates me” is a thing possibly deserving special attention. It feeds into #2, of course, and possibly into #1—it’s extremely self-serving, but I do think I’m admirable by my own standards, and that it reflects well on someone if they manage to notice the right things and value them.[2] However, I’ve certainly formed lots of crushes where I had little data on whether they liked me back. Which, I suppose, is stronger evidence about the underlying qualities (as I perceived them) of the last group; one could imagine girls who are at the borderline, such that if they like me then I like them, but if they don’t then I don’t.
One could imagine being tempted to be strategic: hiding whether you like me, so you can find out whether you’re in the borderline group. (I’ve heard of fictional characters doing this, and real people doing at least somewhat similar things.) I’ll mention reasons not to do this: (a) in context, depending on what “hiding” consists of, it might be weird or register as an inconsistency; (b) given that at least one of us has scored 30+ on the Autism Spectrum Quotient, it seems likely that what you believe I’ve seen about you and the signals you’re sending doesn’t match what I’ve received; (c) for a long-term committed relationship, both of us want much better than borderline, so we should be able to cooperate on finding that out anyway; (d) I value honesty and straightforwardness, and good decisionmaking—and if you truly saw a likelihood of a great long-term relationship with me, but decided to risk it on signaling games that could run afoul of (a) and (b), that strikes me as a bad decision.
You ask specifically about age. I do intend to have kids, which makes the age of my wife-to-be relevant—though if she’s fine with IVF and stuff (which has other advantages), that makes age less relevant. I have found women in their forties and fifties sexually attractive (speaking as a 30-year-old), and had romantic feelings for one of the latter—she’s extremely smart, reasonably pretty, very competent, very kind, has similar opinions about raising kids, etc. Not all guys like older women, but the popularity of MILF porn indicates that plenty do (there is even a GILF category).
I think the underlying causality is like this:
- If I admire her, then my brain generally endorses the idea of spending time with her, growing to trust her, building a relationship.
- If the first two conditions apply, then, when I imagine interacting with her, I will generally find it enjoyable, and want to do more of it. This can become a self-reinforcing loop. Romantic fantasy can be a lovely pastime.
- The third condition lets the loop begin.
For the record, I have sometimes observed someone form a positive opinion of me based on something shallow or incorrect, and my reaction has been bemused / raising an eyebrow / somewhat lowering my opinion of them.
I think it’s worth being specific about “borderline,” curious what you think about this.
In my model, most people in the same culture broadly agree on people’s attractiveness levels—there’s a “g factor” for attractiveness. They also compete effectively for mates. Being heteronormative for a moment, this means that the husbands find their wives about as attractive as the wives find their husbands.
Luck and personal idiosyncrasies mean that people can sometimes find their own partner slightly more attractive than most people would. For example, if a man has a preference for unusually short women, and if those women are typically considered relatively unattractive, he might consider his short wife an 6 when most people would consider her a 4.[1] However, she might consider him a 4, but be happy to date him because she herself is a 4 and finds him typical of the most attractive class of men who show her interest.
This “luck and idiosyncrasy bonus” might be the difference between a “borderline” match (a 4 dating a 4) and a “good” match (two 4s who consider each other 5s due to their mutual attraction to each others’ idiosyncrasies).
A different definition of “borderline” might mean dating somebody you find very attractive (perhaps an 8-10). In my opinion, this is only a realistic expectation if you yourself are in the 8-10 range, or if you’re a 6-7 and willing to hold out a long time for the right mix of luck and idiosyncratic compatibility.
In this model, it’s good to encourage people to spend time looking around for a partner they’re somewhat unusually compatible with, but who would be seen by most people as basically equally as attractive as you are. You’ll know it’s a good match when you each find that the other person fits some odd set of personal preferences that you know most people don’t share, or at least that they don’t feel as strongly about as you do.
In my case, my partner has a similar sense of goofy physical humor, is unusually forthright and willing to deal with my LW-trained debate style despite not having any interest in it herself, doesn’t mind my odd sleep schedule, accommodates me nattering on about my projects, has been willing to patiently wait out a 2 year separation while we’ve had to live 2,000 miles apart for grad school, is exceptionally levelheaded about politics, and is very good at managing her own emotional state.
We each have similar aspects that most people probably find somewhat unattractive. Neither of us grows much hair on our heads. My body is very hairy, her shape is well shy of rubinesque but not thin. Neither of us earns much money right now, and we’re both grinding through grad school. We both dress OK but nothing special, and while neither of us have particular hygiene problems, neither of us is that focused on personal grooming. She is distractable, I’m caught up in my own thoughts. She’s rather cautious, and I take things too seriously. I think that if most people viewed us as a couple, we’d look pretty well matched as far as looks and social charm goes.
Sometimes, I find myself comparing what we might call my partner’s “sexual market value” to other women I’ve dated in the past. Then I remind myself that she is by far the most stable, caring, generous, solid, kind, honest person I’ve dated, the most willing to compromise, the person who’s on the most similar life trajectory to my own. I’ve dated some really conventionally beautiful women, but they were always emotionally unstable, manipulative, struggling in life, or just temporarily having a fling with me and not interested in anything long term. It’s not that conventionally beautiful women are this way intrinsically, it’s just that the conventionally women who have been willing to date me are usually struggling to hang on to a steady relationship with a more attractive man for a reason.
Ranking people’s attractiveness on a 10 point scale feels dumb/crass but it is helpful to express the thought in this case. I’m sorry if it offends anybody.