I don’t think deficiency in dopants can ever arise, though, as they’re used in incredibly tiny amounts.
But they need to be extremely pure and in the right form to be used. (If just having the raw material was enough, no one would ever die of thirst drinking salt-water and plants would never lack for nitrogen.)
We can smell iodine, but we don’t crave it when deficient, so we didn’t have seaweed and the like as a high value spice which everyone craves.
Maybe we can smell very large quantities of iodine, but can one really smell deficiency-relevant amounts in seaweed?
But they need to be extremely pure and in the right form to be used.
Yeah, but so is silicon (and even more so in terms of purity), and there’s million times the silicon. I think industry is sort of similar to the ancestral animal that is eating a diet where it obtains enough micronutrients alongside macronutrients. But if we were to try to build a self replicating factory on the moon… we’d probably just ship anything like this from the earth.
Maybe we can smell very large quantities of iodine, but can one really smell deficiency-relevant amounts in seaweed?
The RDA is 300 micrograms per day, 0.3mg, and if I have a 3% solution of iodine, that’s 10mg of that solution. 1 drop of water is 50mg , and I think you could easily smell 1/5th of a drop (or a drop 58% the size of a regular water drop), but probably not if its mixed up in food. Still it is close enough that given an absence of such adaptation I wouldn’t expect any other complex adaptations to lack of iodine. edit: plus we can detect seaweed without smelling iodine itself.
The RDA is 300 micrograms per day, 0.3mg, and if I have a 3% solution of iodine, that’s 10mg of that solution. 1 drop of water is 50mg , and I think you could easily smell 1/5th of a drop (or a drop 58% the size of a regular water drop), but probably not if its mixed up in food. Still it is close enough that given an absence of such adaptation I wouldn’t expect any other complex adaptations to lack of iodine.
Oh, you mean that smell is one of the easiest adaptations for dealing with a lack of iodine, and since we don’t have a smell adaptation, we don’t have any more complex adaptations? Sure, I agree with that. Tweaking smell sensitivity seems to be pretty easy. Humans aren’t dogs, but we can still smell some things at very low thresholds. For example, t-butyl mercaptan can be smelled at 0.3 parts per billion, it seems. (Although now that I think about it, what on earth was the selection pressure for that? Maybe some smell thresholds are just random.)
edit: plus we can detect seaweed without smelling iodine itself.
Seaweed has an awful lot of stuff in it; we could be smelling any of the components without smelling a particular component. You can easily smell tobacco, but can one smell important parts like nicotine?
Yeah and also we used to have a much better sense of smell. Smell is also used for identification (it seems, in most mammals except humans) and for that the more compounds you detect at the lesser concentrations the better. With mercaptans I think it’d be related to bacterial toxins in rotting meat, which kill at absurdly low concentrations. We can’t detect poisons themselves but we can detect other stuff that goes along with it.
Seaweed has an awful lot of stuff in it
Yeah, that’s the point—those who live next to the coast (within what ever range you can have a preventable iodine deficiency—right next to the coast maybe nobody ever gets it, but some distance inland...) could evolve taste for seaweed based on some other compounds or their combination, to get iodine.
Yeah, that’s the point—those who live next to the coast (within what ever range you can have a preventable iodine deficiency—right next to the coast maybe nobody ever gets it, but some distance inland...) could evolve taste for seaweed based on some other compounds or their combination, to get iodine.
Would that fit food transportation patterns? I’ve never heard of seaweed being collected and shipped in large quantities. Most communities were generally pretty self-sufficient as far as food goes. If you don’t have optional access to seaweed, there’s not going to be anything evolution can exploit—you’ll just get entire communities of deficient people.
Which apparently did exist historically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism#History The consequences are pretty severe: starting from birth, retardation, small size, frequent infertility. And lots of variation within villages and between regions—which sounds like there would have been a lot of selection pressure for particular food preferences, within-village and between-village, but there doesn’t seem to’ve been any kind of adaptation.
What I mean is that a lot of people live quite close to the coast, where they could either go to the trouble of finding more kelp (as people do for salt) or not.
I think it’s just that there wasn’t enough generations and enough pressure. Adaptations like being able to drink milk do occur in a short timeframe, but those could have attained full adaptation in 1 mutation, while this may be the sort of adaptation where 1 mutation only yields a slight preference.
edit: or it may be that iodine deficiency is historically recent and sufficiently rare to result in any specific adaptations. I was basing it on Lithuania which has iodine deficient soil even fairly close to the coast, but that state of affairs may be geologically recent.
Something else with regards to IQ… regarding the variance of IQ (and potential for any breeding). There’s a correlation between the IQ of spouses, which implies that variance is larger than it would have been otherwise (high IQ genes combine more often than they would with random mating). I imagine that the level of correlation between IQ would be dependent on the social institutions and equality (as in a very gender unequal society, there’s no selection mechanism at play, or at least, no direct selection). This also serves as an existing breeding program within the general population (if you look at just the high IQ population and ignore what the rest are doing), with the advantage of not destroying genetic diversity. (Something like Aktion T4 has all the potential of losing those high IQ genes that can backfire when combined with ‘wrong’ genes or the copies of themselves—selective breeding can easily backfire (and does when selectively breeding animals) ).
edit: or it may be that iodine deficiency is historically recent and sufficiently rare to result in any specific adaptations. I was basing it on Lithuania which has iodine deficient soil even fairly close to the coast, but that state of affairs may be geologically recent.
What would cause iodine deficiencies to be recent? As far as I know, remedies using seaweed go back thousands of years; that was enough time for milk and altitude adaptations in some populations, and it seems to me that fixing iodine deficiency would be much more valuable if possible: being completely lactose-intolerant is not nearly as bad as being a shriveled retard who’s infertile.
By recent I meant last ~20 000 years. The lactose tolerance is an exceptionally simple adaptation: full adaptation in 1 step. Whereas I’d imagine available mutations for seaweed craving could only produce a slight preference for a wide class of foods with the first mutations.
Also it may be that there is such an adaptation, it’s just that it’s in a sub-population where it gone unnoticed. In either case we have an apparent fact that there’s no such adaptation, even though it would seem to be advantageous. Which perhaps can’t tell us much about why but can tell us not to expect more complex adaptations to that specific problem.
edit: also, isn’t iodine only necessary for the synthesis of thyroid hormones? In principle it ought to be possible to evolve not to need iodine in the first place, but that obviously won’t happen if iodine is common enough.
Also it may be that there is such an adaptation, it’s just that it’s in a sub-population where it gone unnoticed. In either case we have an apparent fact that there’s no such adaptation, even though it would seem to be advantageous. Which perhaps can’t tell us much about why but can tell us not to expect more complex adaptations to that specific problem.
I suspect such an adaptation would have been noticed. There’s a stupid number of studies in which the researcher takes urine/blood samples from women, measures iodine levels or a proxy for iodine level like TSH, and do a followup on the infants, and, mirabile dictu, the infants tend to have smaller heads or other problems in a fairly linear correlation with the mothers’ deficiencies. (Seriously, there’s like 1 a week of these in my Pubmed alerts for iodine, it’s quite a nuisance. Who funds this crap?) It’s common to record race or ethnicity as part of the covariates; if someone had found an interaction where, I dunno, Europeans were immune to iodine deficiency, I figure I would have heard about it because it would be so much more interesting and sexy a result than the usual one.
also, isn’t iodine only necessary for the synthesis of thyroid hormones? In principle it ought to be possible to evolve not to need iodine in the first place, but that obviously won’t happen if iodine is common enough.
I’m not sure. It may be that iodine is the only way to do the things it does in mammals—either because it’s a local optima or global. For example, you can theoretically have blood which doesn’t require iron for hemoglobin (which requires iron), as demonstrated by octopus blood using hemocyanin which relies on copper rather than iron, but no matter how little iron is available, it’s hard to see mammals ever evolving hemocyanin and abandoning hemoglobin. And more generally, now that the arsenic-bacteria seem to have been debunked, there doesn’t seem to be any replacement at all for phosphate in key roles like ATP; if Earth-life has no access to phosphate, it’s doomed.
(Of course, some other examples suggest the other way: humans lost the ability to synthesize vitamin C a while ago, and could probably recover it; but there’s never been enough selection pressure.)
But they wouldn’t be immune to deficiency, merely eating a diet that prevents the deficiency, through some sort of craving for seafood which is virtually impossible to discern from cultural. We do seem to have a preference for variety in food.
I’m not sure. It may be that iodine is the only way to do the things it does in mammals
My understanding is that it is used in signalling molecules used to control growth, but is not used in any key steps in main metabolism itself. Animals can survive on very little iodine, it seems—stunted and not growing right, but i’d imagine given enough time evolution would find a way to re-do that growth control using another molecules for hormones.
But they need to be extremely pure and in the right form to be used. (If just having the raw material was enough, no one would ever die of thirst drinking salt-water and plants would never lack for nitrogen.)
Maybe we can smell very large quantities of iodine, but can one really smell deficiency-relevant amounts in seaweed?
Yeah, but so is silicon (and even more so in terms of purity), and there’s million times the silicon. I think industry is sort of similar to the ancestral animal that is eating a diet where it obtains enough micronutrients alongside macronutrients. But if we were to try to build a self replicating factory on the moon… we’d probably just ship anything like this from the earth.
The RDA is 300 micrograms per day, 0.3mg, and if I have a 3% solution of iodine, that’s 10mg of that solution. 1 drop of water is 50mg , and I think you could easily smell 1/5th of a drop (or a drop 58% the size of a regular water drop), but probably not if its mixed up in food. Still it is close enough that given an absence of such adaptation I wouldn’t expect any other complex adaptations to lack of iodine. edit: plus we can detect seaweed without smelling iodine itself.
Oh, you mean that smell is one of the easiest adaptations for dealing with a lack of iodine, and since we don’t have a smell adaptation, we don’t have any more complex adaptations? Sure, I agree with that. Tweaking smell sensitivity seems to be pretty easy. Humans aren’t dogs, but we can still smell some things at very low thresholds. For example, t-butyl mercaptan can be smelled at 0.3 parts per billion, it seems. (Although now that I think about it, what on earth was the selection pressure for that? Maybe some smell thresholds are just random.)
Seaweed has an awful lot of stuff in it; we could be smelling any of the components without smelling a particular component. You can easily smell tobacco, but can one smell important parts like nicotine?
Yeah and also we used to have a much better sense of smell. Smell is also used for identification (it seems, in most mammals except humans) and for that the more compounds you detect at the lesser concentrations the better. With mercaptans I think it’d be related to bacterial toxins in rotting meat, which kill at absurdly low concentrations. We can’t detect poisons themselves but we can detect other stuff that goes along with it.
Yeah, that’s the point—those who live next to the coast (within what ever range you can have a preventable iodine deficiency—right next to the coast maybe nobody ever gets it, but some distance inland...) could evolve taste for seaweed based on some other compounds or their combination, to get iodine.
Would that fit food transportation patterns? I’ve never heard of seaweed being collected and shipped in large quantities. Most communities were generally pretty self-sufficient as far as food goes. If you don’t have optional access to seaweed, there’s not going to be anything evolution can exploit—you’ll just get entire communities of deficient people.
Which apparently did exist historically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism#History The consequences are pretty severe: starting from birth, retardation, small size, frequent infertility. And lots of variation within villages and between regions—which sounds like there would have been a lot of selection pressure for particular food preferences, within-village and between-village, but there doesn’t seem to’ve been any kind of adaptation.
What I mean is that a lot of people live quite close to the coast, where they could either go to the trouble of finding more kelp (as people do for salt) or not.
I think it’s just that there wasn’t enough generations and enough pressure. Adaptations like being able to drink milk do occur in a short timeframe, but those could have attained full adaptation in 1 mutation, while this may be the sort of adaptation where 1 mutation only yields a slight preference.
edit: or it may be that iodine deficiency is historically recent and sufficiently rare to result in any specific adaptations. I was basing it on Lithuania which has iodine deficient soil even fairly close to the coast, but that state of affairs may be geologically recent.
Something else with regards to IQ… regarding the variance of IQ (and potential for any breeding). There’s a correlation between the IQ of spouses, which implies that variance is larger than it would have been otherwise (high IQ genes combine more often than they would with random mating). I imagine that the level of correlation between IQ would be dependent on the social institutions and equality (as in a very gender unequal society, there’s no selection mechanism at play, or at least, no direct selection). This also serves as an existing breeding program within the general population (if you look at just the high IQ population and ignore what the rest are doing), with the advantage of not destroying genetic diversity. (Something like Aktion T4 has all the potential of losing those high IQ genes that can backfire when combined with ‘wrong’ genes or the copies of themselves—selective breeding can easily backfire (and does when selectively breeding animals) ).
What would cause iodine deficiencies to be recent? As far as I know, remedies using seaweed go back thousands of years; that was enough time for milk and altitude adaptations in some populations, and it seems to me that fixing iodine deficiency would be much more valuable if possible: being completely lactose-intolerant is not nearly as bad as being a shriveled retard who’s infertile.
By recent I meant last ~20 000 years. The lactose tolerance is an exceptionally simple adaptation: full adaptation in 1 step. Whereas I’d imagine available mutations for seaweed craving could only produce a slight preference for a wide class of foods with the first mutations.
Also it may be that there is such an adaptation, it’s just that it’s in a sub-population where it gone unnoticed. In either case we have an apparent fact that there’s no such adaptation, even though it would seem to be advantageous. Which perhaps can’t tell us much about why but can tell us not to expect more complex adaptations to that specific problem.
edit: also, isn’t iodine only necessary for the synthesis of thyroid hormones? In principle it ought to be possible to evolve not to need iodine in the first place, but that obviously won’t happen if iodine is common enough.
I suspect such an adaptation would have been noticed. There’s a stupid number of studies in which the researcher takes urine/blood samples from women, measures iodine levels or a proxy for iodine level like TSH, and do a followup on the infants, and, mirabile dictu, the infants tend to have smaller heads or other problems in a fairly linear correlation with the mothers’ deficiencies. (Seriously, there’s like 1 a week of these in my Pubmed alerts for iodine, it’s quite a nuisance. Who funds this crap?) It’s common to record race or ethnicity as part of the covariates; if someone had found an interaction where, I dunno, Europeans were immune to iodine deficiency, I figure I would have heard about it because it would be so much more interesting and sexy a result than the usual one.
I’m not sure. It may be that iodine is the only way to do the things it does in mammals—either because it’s a local optima or global. For example, you can theoretically have blood which doesn’t require iron for hemoglobin (which requires iron), as demonstrated by octopus blood using hemocyanin which relies on copper rather than iron, but no matter how little iron is available, it’s hard to see mammals ever evolving hemocyanin and abandoning hemoglobin. And more generally, now that the arsenic-bacteria seem to have been debunked, there doesn’t seem to be any replacement at all for phosphate in key roles like ATP; if Earth-life has no access to phosphate, it’s doomed.
(Of course, some other examples suggest the other way: humans lost the ability to synthesize vitamin C a while ago, and could probably recover it; but there’s never been enough selection pressure.)
But they wouldn’t be immune to deficiency, merely eating a diet that prevents the deficiency, through some sort of craving for seafood which is virtually impossible to discern from cultural. We do seem to have a preference for variety in food.
My understanding is that it is used in signalling molecules used to control growth, but is not used in any key steps in main metabolism itself. Animals can survive on very little iodine, it seems—stunted and not growing right, but i’d imagine given enough time evolution would find a way to re-do that growth control using another molecules for hormones.